The best airplane for tail wheel training?

[fl80]

I waited for about an hour to get that shot!

And a really nice result.

Here's a photo that my then 11 year old took back in August 2006 at Pitt Meadows when the Aeroclub of BC hosted a Canuck gathering to celebrate there 60th birthdays, 7 Canucks attended. Ours is the White and Red one.

[Cat Driver]

It has been a long time since a thread went this long without coming apart.

Been looking back through the pages and the last one was in June of 2008.

Funny but that one was started to rip my ass for being anti flight instructor, in fact the heading was " Cat Driver: I am tired of your instructor bashing. " It made for an interesting read.

Anyhow I quit posting in this forum so as not to piss off all those instructors, when this thread popped back up I decided to keep posting in it because it was my thread.

During my drifting through the old threads I found this bit of flying advice that I wrote about flying tail wheel airplanes.

Lets have a look at the wheel landing.

In another thread I offered some thoughts on how to judge height and situational awareness during a landing in nose wheel airplanes and figured what the hell I might as well offer some suggestions on how to perform a wheel landing.

( The following is only a brief overview of this subject and in no way a full discussion of said subject.)

During the training for crossover from nose wheel airplanes to tail wheel airplanes there is a tendency on the part of some instructors to focus on full stall three point landings.

Why there is this concentration on three point landings is interesting because in almost every tail wheel airplane that is available to the general pilot community the wheel landing gives best directional control, especially with a X/wind.

So first lets look at the Flight Training Manual and see what that has to say regarding wheel landings.

There is not really much there except a short paragraph that is fuzzy at best in describing how to perform a smooth safe wheel landing.

In fact I find the description for this landing to be quite interesting.

Quote:
( From the Flight Training Manual.)

The approach should be normal with or without power according to the conditions of the day, to the point where the descent is checked. The airspeed is then decreased to the point at which the aircraft settles. Adjust the power at this point so as to descend in a level attitude at a slow rate ( approximately 100 to 300 feet per minute).


You will not be able to watch the vertical speed indicator during this stage, but with practice you can easily estimate the descent rate. A fast rate of descent could cause a hard contact with the surface, followed by a downward rotation of the tail through inertia and a subsequent bounce back up into the air. Small control adjustments only should be used as the aircraft settles to assist in descending slowly and maintain a level attitude. As the wheels smoothly contact the surface , apply gentle but firm forward pressure to hold the wheels on the ground and decrease the angle of attack. The aircraft should be held on the wheels nearly level, until it has slowed sufficiently to ensure full control in a three point attitude under existing conditions.

I teach the wheel landing a little differently, especially with regard to the rate of descent issue prior to wheel contact with the surface.

From a normal approach attitude and airspeed you commence the flare at a height which will result in the airplane being in the level attitude as the flare is completed and at the same time making contact with the surface, at wheel contact with the surface you lower the nose attitude sufficiently enough to change the angle of attack to produce zero or negative lift.

This can be done in two ways, my preference is to have the airplane trimmed hands off for the approach speed to make the approach less work and at surface contact use a slight forward movement of the elevator control to pin the airplane to the surface by dumping the lift vector.

Some pilots use nose down trim and just relax the back pressure at wheel contact, however that can pose a bit of an irritation if you need to go around for any reason as you now have a nose heavy airplane to start the climb out with.

The best prescription for a good wheel landing is quite simple…..flare at the correct height so as to not have to extend the landing distance and time in the air adjusting the rate of descent in the level attitude getting rid of height you didn’t need in the first place.

P.S. :

I high lighted that bit in red because it needs some examination.

I just clipped this bit as it needs further explanation and maybe I will take the time to go further into it if anyone is interested.

The best prescription for a good wheel landing is quite simple…..flare at the correct height so as to not have to extend the landing distance and time in the air adjusting the rate of descent in the level attitude getting rid of height you didn’t need in the first place

.

The part from the Flight Training Manual that I high lighted in red is truly bizzare.

[StudentPilot]

I just clipped this bit as it needs further explanation and maybe I will take the time to go further into it if anyone is interested.

The best prescription for a good wheel landing is quite simple…..flare at the correct height so as to not have to extend the landing distance and time in the air adjusting the rate of descent in the level attitude getting rid of height you didn’t need in the first place

I, for one, would be interested in reading a more in-depth explanation whenever you are looking to kill some time Cat.

[Cat Driver]

I, for one, would be interested in reading a more in-depth explanation whenever you are looking to kill some time Cat.

Thanks, it's to late tonight but when I get in the mood again I will see if I can find one of the landing lessons I wrote for the guys on Pprune.....if I can't find it I will see if I remember enough about the subject to rewrite it again....gettin old you know.

[biohazzard]

Excellent. This info is just what I am looking for. Please, continue on.
Cat Driver, when I get some time, I will PM you with some airplane ads and ask for your thoughts before I call the owners.
Thanks everyone,
Mike

[MichaelP]

http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=51539

[Cat Driver]

Has anyone figured out what is bizarre about this quote from the flight training manual?

( From the Flight Training Manual.)

The approach should be normal with or without power according to the conditions of the day, to the point where the descent is checked. The airspeed is then decreased to the point at which the aircraft settles. Adjust the power at this point so as to descend in a level attitude at a slow rate ( approximately 100 to 300 feet per minute).

Also I see a flight school in B.C. has a requirement for a student to have grade 12 or equivalent before they will be accepted for the multi engine rating.

Why?

[fl80]

Has anyone figured out what is bizarre about this quote from the flight training manual?

Well, with my limited experience on either of the two taildraggers(Canuck and L-19) I fly, I'd expect to see a windscreen full of sky right after impacting the ground at 100-300fpm. I can't generalize to all other types but I don't think I'd be inclined to "just give it a try" either. Close?

[Cat Driver]

Close?

No.

You were not close you were bang on so to speak.

If you were to contact the runway at 300 fpm attempting to wheel land a tail wheel airplane you would bounce high enough to do a power off circuit.

Two things are quite obvious from reading the flight training manual, not only did who ever wrote it not think that wheel landing skills are very important for safe tail wheel flying they didn't even know how to do one.

How does such an obvious piece of misinformation get printed in the flight training manual, and even more troubling is how come no one ever thought to suggest they correct it?

[fantome]

Talk of alignment and toe in and just how squirrely things can get reminds me of the first few times I flew my O-470 Blanton Wichawk. She'd come out of a service, sold with the annual just done. She'd had been built by a retired Qantas engineer/pilot, and I was happy to buy her sight unseen, although I did get an A & P mate to give her the once over. My first half dozen landings were heart in mouth, especially when slowing down. She needed bags and bags of brake to keep something like straight. Miracle I didn't wrap her up in a ball. What had happened was an apprentice engineer had hooked up the tail wheel without crossing the wires and because of the way the Wichawk is engineered at the back end, you cannot easily check for correct sense. The rudder had not been unhooked during the service, and if it had, the regs require two licensed signatures in the logbook to certify controls correctly rigged. But why the monkey had fiddled with the tailwheel cables I never did find out.

[Cat Driver]

Can you post a picture of a O-470 Blanton Wichawk. ?

[Hedley]

For the newbies: there is a simple, but completely
unpublicized trick to making any wheel landing much,
much easier. I have posted and reposted this information
here many times. Use the search function.

[Cat Driver]

For the newbies: there is a simple, but completely
unpublicized trick to making any wheel landing much,
much easier. I have posted and reposted this information
here many times. Use the search function.

And I'll bet both my nuts it is not having a 300 fpm rate of descent on touch down.

[MichaelP]

Blanton Wichawk

This is what Google images came up with.

You should try an Auster with 100 - 300 fpm descent rate onto the wheels...
Many pilots get their astronaut ratings in this way.

[iflyforpie]

For the newbies: there is a simple, but completely
unpublicized trick to making any wheel landing much,
much easier. I have posted and reposted this information
here many times. Use the search function.

How about doing a slip and touching one wheel before the other? Didn't use the search but I have a good memory. Maybe one day I'll put it to use when I get my tail dragger.

[MichaelP]

An instructor I was talking to yesterday told me that he did not like the idea of flying a tailwheel aeroplane.
He was told at another school that you have to land it on the two mainwheels... I told him that you can land on all three, in fact it's preferable to do so.
With such ignorance around I wonder how a tailwheel aeroplane will survive at a non tailwheel flying school with questionable training practices, a huge opinionated rumour mill, and mis-informed people.
We'll find out I suppose.
But I hope that it does not upset future operators of tailwheel aeroplanes and increase our insurance premiums if it is proven that Tailwheel aeroplanes are dangerous through incompetence.

A similar thing is with respect to our Katanas.
One of them was operated by a school here when it was new.
They could not start the engine in the winter, and they loaded the engine up with too much oil.
The Katanas here sometimes have had a little difficulty starting this winter though I have had NO difficulty at all myself. But if you go by the AFM as one should they start easily enough.
But the net result of the previous operator's experience has been a predjudism against what is actually a very very reliable aeroplane. I wouldn't swap one for a 152 ever.

C FSPH, has been one of the safest, lowest maintenance cost, aeroplane's on Pro's fleet. It is an old Citabria.
Will the new one on the field survive???

[Cat Driver]

An instructor I was talking to yesterday told me that he did not like the idea of flying a tailwheel aeroplane.

Ignorance about any subject will result in that kind of mindset.

He was told at another school that you have to land it on the two mainwheels...

That is true, because to properly learn to fly a tail wheel airplane the wheel landing is part of the training.

I told him that you can land on all three,

I am surprised he did not know that, because a lot of none tail wheel qualified pilots think that is the only way to land them...including some unqualified instructors.

in fact it's preferable to do so.

True for some airplanes, however flying some tail wheel airplanes the wheel landing is the preferable method.

With such ignorance around I wonder how a tailwheel aeroplane will survive at a non tailwheel flying school with questionable training practices, a huge opinionated rumour mill, and mis-informed people.

One of the most frustrating problems I had trying to sell my Aerobat was dealing with pilots who when they first looked at it said " Oh, it is a tail wheel airplane, my instructor said they are dangerous machines to fly. "

In fact when I told my friend it was the perfect airplane for him to learn to fly on the first thing he said was how will I find an instructor to teach me on it.......anyhow Michael, if you ever get to meet Bob ask him what he thinks about the tail wheel airplane now.

[MichaelP]

if you ever get to meet Bob ask him what he thinks about the tail wheel airplane now.

I would never ask that question of anyone...
There's no point in wasting verbals when you look at the people you have checked out in tailwheel aeroplanes and they all look like this:



By the way I posted this on the General Comments forum and it has been moved to obscurity on the political forum: "Man has never landed on the Moon"
It addresses some of the problems we find with the current mindset, people are not excited enough these days.

I grew up with such stuff... Was looking at You Tube and all the Gerry Anderson programs with creative ideas.
I grew up hungry to fly, for the sake of it, and without any 'professional' justification.
I ran my own club, I had old aeroplanes and I had new ones and with no prejudice for either, simply they had to be fun.

[Doc]

Me wants to fly a Stearman. And an ME109. And, one of Hedley's wee Pitts beasts. Maybe a P40? That'd be a rip.

[Cat Driver]

Doc, if you want a real neat airplane for fun get a check out in a MS-760, the owner of the Flying Fireman had one and I told him if he didn't let me fly it I would get so depressed I would start missing my drops on the fires.
That did the trick and he said O.K. but you buy the fuel......I found a way to get the Manitoba Forestry to pay for it.

It was real neat...even has speed brakes so when ATC gives you a lower altitude you just roll over inverted, pop the speed brakes and pull back on the stick until it is going straight down...with a little practice you will be able to level off right on the new assigned altitude.....their radar will hardly keep up with your descent rate and the controller will book off and go to the doctor thinking he/she had passed out for a while..

[Hedley]

Me wants to fly a Stearman

I think I can probably help you what that

And an ME109

That's a bit harder - quite a rare beast. A friend of mine did the
test flights for Ed Russell on his.

one of Hedley's wee Pitts beasts

No problem, but our S-2B's are BIG compared to the tiny single seaters!

Maybe a P40?

Mike in Gatineau has one:

http://www.vintagewings.ca/page?s=64&lang=en-CA

be sure and click on "more aircraft" on the top right
to see the others.

So, there are a few aircraft like that around, but not
everyone gets to fly them! A good friend of mine
flies Ed Russells's Spitfire for him, so it must be possible!

[MichaelP]

just roll over inverted, pop the speed brakes and push forward on the stick until it is going straight down...

This after an inverted stall I presume?

[Hedley]

push forward on the stick .... after an inverted stall?

Heh. I was giving some stall/spin training in the Pitts a while
ago, and the student wanted to perform an inverted, power-on
stall. Fine with me.

So we're inverted, with some power on, at quite an inverted
angle of pitch - perhaps 45 degrees nose up? He applied full
forward stick to stall the Pitts, and it simply drove around
the cutest little outside loop that you ever did see

[MichaelP]

the cutest little outside loop that you ever did see

"Bugger" is what I say to that... You want the aeroplane to teach the student a nasty lesson and all it does is behave!
I bet it was like a T21 Sedburgh which seems to simply pitch around its wing in the loop rather than actually describe a circle.

The Decathlon at least shows its tendency to enter an inverted spin when pushed a bit.
After a stall turn I pushed to push out inverted, a little too early, and she was into an inverted spin right now!

I had one bright spark in the T67A who was not frightened enough to be properly aware. Sometimes you get a student who does everything well and gets bloated by it... Wrong attitude.
After a stall turn I pushed out saying "oh no! what's happening", and the beads of sweat showed on his brow!

I think . meant roll inverted and pull to the vertical... It just shows I read his post.

[Cat Driver]

I think . meant roll inverted and pull to the vertical... It just shows I read his post.

Good one Michael, just goes to show we should think while typing....

Just goes to show how easy it is to type and not be thinking straight.

By the way I corrected that dumb mistake.