What I really find difficult to deal with on this forum are the people who come here under the thinly disguised veil of being TC or retired from same and defending the indefensible.
Then again it shouldn't really surprise me because if you are in a system long enough it is easy to become like the system.
My wife and I visited Auschwitz a few years ago and we have often talked about the horror that camp must have been. For the system to have been so effective at killing people they must have had a lot of workers who saw nothing wrong with their masters.
Investigated by TC
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Cat Driver
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Re: Investigated by TC
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Investigated by TC
Speaking of the OP (original poster), poor guy/gal must be sh!tting in his/her boots by now.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Re: Investigated by TC
For what its worth here is my experience.
I was reported for low flying. I was employed.
T.C enforcement contacted dispatch & found out it was me called me and then we talked.
I explained the flight. I was 100% honest and open which didn't include being reckless in my opinion. I wrote a letter to clearly explain the flight and my considerations. I also reviewed the CARs in question and had a lengthy discussion on them with the investigator.
T.C did their investigation and told me that they would let me know the outcome. They did, and called me back and said that this that the follow up action was to confirm there was a company incident report completed. In other words they wanted to see SMS being used. We did this and had an open discussion at our next safety meeting. Company policy has changed slightly and so has my attitude when accepting those specific missions. TC is satisfied and so am I.
So, maybe I got a good inspector, a sympathetic one or perhaps a lazy one
. Again my case didn't display negligent or knowledge of contravening the CARs, also I had a strong argument for doing what I did.
I was scared going into it but came to the, perhaps naive, conclusion that they wouldn't go on a witch hunt if I was open and honest and therefore perceived as having nothing to hide. That said, I am sure that playing ignorant won't be tolerated very well as an excuse..
I was reported for low flying. I was employed.
T.C enforcement contacted dispatch & found out it was me called me and then we talked.
I explained the flight. I was 100% honest and open which didn't include being reckless in my opinion. I wrote a letter to clearly explain the flight and my considerations. I also reviewed the CARs in question and had a lengthy discussion on them with the investigator.
T.C did their investigation and told me that they would let me know the outcome. They did, and called me back and said that this that the follow up action was to confirm there was a company incident report completed. In other words they wanted to see SMS being used. We did this and had an open discussion at our next safety meeting. Company policy has changed slightly and so has my attitude when accepting those specific missions. TC is satisfied and so am I.
So, maybe I got a good inspector, a sympathetic one or perhaps a lazy one
. Again my case didn't display negligent or knowledge of contravening the CARs, also I had a strong argument for doing what I did. I was scared going into it but came to the, perhaps naive, conclusion that they wouldn't go on a witch hunt if I was open and honest and therefore perceived as having nothing to hide. That said, I am sure that playing ignorant won't be tolerated very well as an excuse..
Re: Investigated by TC
Ok, here goes my two cents. Over the many years as a Ops. manager and pilot, I've had to report violations, and had one boo boo, myself (dont ask, not telling). I picked up the phone and called TC. You know what happened? Nothing! I have never had any problems with TC, I treated them like I wanted to be treated, and they went out of there way to help me, many, many times. As a matter of fact I've made some good friends over there during my tenure in Management. Hey, take it for whats it's worth, just my experience over the last 17 yrs.
Good Luck
Good Luck
Last edited by onmyway on Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Man, I've tried nuthin and I'm all out of Ideas!
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Cat Driver
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Re: Investigated by TC
Interesting post onmyway, but not really unusual because most people have not had a bad experience with TC, hell I went almost fifty years before I had my problem with them.
Maybe some of us just deserved what we got?
By the way you have a typo in your last post from reading your previous posts you can't have 25 years in the business.
Maybe some of us just deserved what we got?
By the way you have a typo in your last post from reading your previous posts you can't have 25 years in the business.
Post subject: Re: Investigated by TC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:52 pm
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:46 pm
Posts: 16
Hey, take it for whats it's worth, just my experience over the last 25 yrs.
Good Luck
onmyway
Post subject: Re: New Career
Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:07 pm
THEICEMAN, I've been flying for 21 years,
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Investigated by TC
I read some of his old posts too. A little bit confusing based on his other posts, not only to the years,
Perhaps I missed something, but if your flying heavy equipment you dont usually pick up the phone and talk to TC.
Maybe, when you are explaining the experience difference to CAT, you could explain your ops mgr and chief pilot positions....
Your little story is truly inspiring....but I am having a hard time thinking someone who has been in the business, at age 40 plus, is using terms like "way cool".
Maybe you could clear some of this up, and we can consider your post in a little clearer light.
Perhaps I missed something, but if your flying heavy equipment you dont usually pick up the phone and talk to TC.
Maybe, when you are explaining the experience difference to CAT, you could explain your ops mgr and chief pilot positions....
Your little story is truly inspiring....but I am having a hard time thinking someone who has been in the business, at age 40 plus, is using terms like "way cool".
Maybe you could clear some of this up, and we can consider your post in a little clearer light.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Investigated by TC
Widow, you have to look a little deeper into the cases you posted to draw any conclusions about the dates. A lengthy delay could be caused by the accused seeking adjournments for any variety of reasons such as being out of the country, sick, awaiting another decision which would set precedent, etc. More telling is the average time it takes to go through the tribunal process.
Trey, allegation or appeal - doesn't really matter - you get the point. The tribunal weighs the evidence anew and makes it's own decision.
Remember as well, "TC" doesn't make decisions, persecute or threaten. Individual employees do that. If threats of retaliation are used to coerce guilty pleas, it would be a good idea to record conversations and/or always have a witness present when talking to them. Legal aid and law societies will often take those kinds of cases for free and can drag the investigator and TC before the courts. They could push for a criminal obstruction justice charge against the individual, petition the court to strip TC of the ability to conduct investigations or present their own cases, etc. It's a serious violation of the principle of fundemental justice, and the courts would not treat it lightly.
Trey, allegation or appeal - doesn't really matter - you get the point. The tribunal weighs the evidence anew and makes it's own decision.
Remember as well, "TC" doesn't make decisions, persecute or threaten. Individual employees do that. If threats of retaliation are used to coerce guilty pleas, it would be a good idea to record conversations and/or always have a witness present when talking to them. Legal aid and law societies will often take those kinds of cases for free and can drag the investigator and TC before the courts. They could push for a criminal obstruction justice charge against the individual, petition the court to strip TC of the ability to conduct investigations or present their own cases, etc. It's a serious violation of the principle of fundemental justice, and the courts would not treat it lightly.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Investigated by TC
Ok, here goes my two cents. Over the many years as a Ops. manager and pilot, I've had to report violations, and had one boo boo, myself (dont ask, not telling). I picked up the phone and called TC. You know what happened? Nothing! I have never had any problems with TC, I treated them like I wanted to be treated, and they went out of there way to help me, many, many times. As a matter of fact I've made some good friends over there during my tenure in Management.
You should check what you have previously posted onmyway because your credibility is slipping.Um, no. By law you have to identify yourself as a pilot whenever you seek medical consultation from any doctor!. And, in turn, the physician must report anything that they feel may impede your skills as a pilot. If you don't report yourself, have a legitimate problem, get better, hand in your documentation to Transport, hang on! You WILL get investigated, fined, and possibly suspened till Transport concludes a satisfactory result. I know, I did it, and recieved the full brunt of their hammer. And it was something very simple as well. Be very carefull, they live for this stuff.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Investigated by TC
cat driver, good catch. Well, the reason for that one is exactly what I didn't do,non-disclosure of my condition till a few years after the fact. Big lesson learned there. As far as years flying, yes my math is bad. I started flying commercially in 1989, and haven't flown since Dec. 2007.
Man, I've tried nuthin and I'm all out of Ideas!
Re: Investigated by TC
Fair enough on the time delays, Wilbur, but you sure do give me food for thought on other counts ...
I continue in my thinking though, that the problem isn't with the average Enforcement investigator, or any average TC "grunt", but with management. Here is a snippet of a document from 1999:
I continue in my thinking though, that the problem isn't with the average Enforcement investigator, or any average TC "grunt", but with management. Here is a snippet of a document from 1999:
... What I read on this thread really seems to underscore that things have NOT changed ...An issue which continues to be raised at every Basic Aviation Enforcement Course (BAEC) by course participants is the inconsistency, complete disregard, or ignorance of Transport Canada (TC) supervisory personnel and management in adhering to or supporting the TC aviation enforcement mandate, policies and procedures.
Last edited by Widow on Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Re: Investigated by TC
Trey, allegation or appeal - doesn't really matter - you get the point. The tribunal weighs the evidence anew and makes it's own decision.
Perhaps I am not making myself clear...it is not an allegation when it comes to TC...it is a decision..and a sanction.
If you do not understand the destinction between allegation, or worse, really believe it does not matter, I guess we should just let the issue drop.
The difference between having the right to defend yourself in a public setting, as having to file an appeal against a decision made behind closed doors where you were only allowed to provide imput is a world apart. It would be interesting to see, from an independent source, how many people actually did access information prior to a decision being rendered.
Anyway, this discussion is ultimately leading us nowhere. Perhaps the original poster, if he has a nice chat with TC, will let us all know just how fairly and openly he was treated.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Investigated by TC
I wasn't previously aware there was an identity check on this website. My mistake, though if I was to tell you that I don't work for Transport, you probably wouldn't believe me. Maybe I should tell you I DO work for TC, so that then you think I don't... Wait! Maybe you ALL work for transport! Or maybe just some of you... Maybe Cat Driver is their top mole in the pilot world! Of course! we'd never suspect. Dammit!trey kule wrote:As to the paranoia..Is that what thinking fair disclosure is? Let me be clear here. If, during work hours , as a TC employee, you are giving advice of any kind to someone involved in an investigation, should you not identify that you are a TC employee? Seems quite a simple issue to me. You argument is like the one I have heard that if you are not doing anything wrong then you should be more than willing to waive the rights granted to you under the charter. I am not paranoid. Just untrustful of some of the people in TC.
And for the record, no one said anything about "waiving rights" Nor have I said anything about trusting people from TC, I've merely gave as example how my experiences have worked out. Take it for whatever you want to do with it.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
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Cat Driver
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Re: Investigated by TC
That is a good one.. Maybe Cat Driver is their top mole in the pilot world!
I may be all kinds of things to many but there is no doubt as to my identity.
Like me or hate me you have to admit I am willing to stand up for what I believe to be right.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Investigated by TC
Shiny side up.
Please read this again...read slowly now. And try to understand.
Someone here has indicated they have a problem with TC. They have asked for advice.
Now, if you are with TC, I believe you have a duty to disclose that fact when you give advice so as not to infringe on that posters rights. It is nothing more than that. It is not about ID checking, paranoia, or any other points you advance to try and minimilize and degrade my position. But that is a good example of how a TC employee works...are you trying to demonstrate how TC works? If so I get it.
As to all this cutsey and clever stuff about I am or I am not. Wait...did you disclose or not? Quite frankly , that is the type of thing TC does...again a good example...See,... if you were with TC you could walk into the tribunal and state that you did disclose you were with TC. Even emphasized it in your email in big capital letters..."I DO". Great example. You do not have to concern yourself if anyone believes it or not. You just have to disclose in clear language, without the smoke screen as you have demonstrated.....
So let me reply with an example of how to deal with TC...
"Stop the cutsey stuff. Do us all the courtesy, when offering advice to someone who may be dealing with TC, and disclose in clear and uncertain terms whether you work for TC, or have worked for TC.
No paranoia... Simple honest disclosure for what could be construed biased advice without it. And it only applies where someone has asked for advice in dealing with TC, and the potential for conflict of interest arises. I hope this puts to rest your comment about not knowing that ID checking was part of this website.. It is about honesty and integrity, though if you do work for TC, you might not be familar with those concepts.
As to working for TC and disclosure...Well , one day a young boy was watching his father and another gentleman chat about airplanes and regulations. When the gentleman walked away the boy asked his dad if the other man was from transport...father said he didnt know...The boy asked him why his father did not ask....and the reply...
"If he is with transport , son, he can tell you if he wants, otherwise dont embarass him by asking"
"Transport Canada"...where the fact we dont use our proper name says it all.
Please read this again...read slowly now. And try to understand.
Someone here has indicated they have a problem with TC. They have asked for advice.
Now, if you are with TC, I believe you have a duty to disclose that fact when you give advice so as not to infringe on that posters rights. It is nothing more than that. It is not about ID checking, paranoia, or any other points you advance to try and minimilize and degrade my position. But that is a good example of how a TC employee works...are you trying to demonstrate how TC works? If so I get it.
As to all this cutsey and clever stuff about I am or I am not. Wait...did you disclose or not? Quite frankly , that is the type of thing TC does...again a good example...See,... if you were with TC you could walk into the tribunal and state that you did disclose you were with TC. Even emphasized it in your email in big capital letters..."I DO". Great example. You do not have to concern yourself if anyone believes it or not. You just have to disclose in clear language, without the smoke screen as you have demonstrated.....
So let me reply with an example of how to deal with TC...
"Stop the cutsey stuff. Do us all the courtesy, when offering advice to someone who may be dealing with TC, and disclose in clear and uncertain terms whether you work for TC, or have worked for TC.
No paranoia... Simple honest disclosure for what could be construed biased advice without it. And it only applies where someone has asked for advice in dealing with TC, and the potential for conflict of interest arises. I hope this puts to rest your comment about not knowing that ID checking was part of this website.. It is about honesty and integrity, though if you do work for TC, you might not be familar with those concepts.
As to working for TC and disclosure...Well , one day a young boy was watching his father and another gentleman chat about airplanes and regulations. When the gentleman walked away the boy asked his dad if the other man was from transport...father said he didnt know...The boy asked him why his father did not ask....and the reply...
"If he is with transport , son, he can tell you if he wants, otherwise dont embarass him by asking"
"Transport Canada"...where the fact we dont use our proper name says it all.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
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Tubthumper
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Re: Investigated by TC
Is it just me, or do a few of them just seem like they were picked-on and bullied in the playground as kids? 
I can't imagine what's it's like to legally be allowed
to be an 'expert' on an airplane I've never flown.
I can't imagine what's it's like to legally be allowedto be an 'expert' on an airplane I've never flown.
Re: Investigated by TC
Well, to give the devil their due, I have done many, many rides with TC over the years, and have had nothing but positive experiences with them.. Some great guys out there.
Have heard some horror stories, but mostly from pilots who did not want to accept they could not pass a ride.
Maybe things have changed..Out with the old guard and all, as I have not done a ride in Canada in awile. Rides in other countries tend to be much differenct. Less structure. More realism, and the inspectors are allowed lattitude and common sense..something that TC seems to want to diminish in their inspectors these day.
Have heard some horror stories, but mostly from pilots who did not want to accept they could not pass a ride.
Maybe things have changed..Out with the old guard and all, as I have not done a ride in Canada in awile. Rides in other countries tend to be much differenct. Less structure. More realism, and the inspectors are allowed lattitude and common sense..something that TC seems to want to diminish in their inspectors these day.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Investigated by TC
Then in response Trey Kule, let me put this in words you understand. In the last post I was attempting to use sarcasm and a bit of humor to deflect which you have put forward as an accusation against myself.
Are you or are you not accusing me of not only working for transport? You are also telling me that in addition to the alleged "crime" I am commiting of working for TC, you also insinuate that I and one of the ones of poor moral standing who do, and am making an attempt to entrap a fellow aviator. If this is the case then I merely wish to be clear on that matter of where you stand.
For the record I do not work for them (that is to say TC or any arm there of). Once again I have merely put forward what my experiences have been. I realise that everyone doesn't share the view or that experience.
Are you or are you not accusing me of not only working for transport? You are also telling me that in addition to the alleged "crime" I am commiting of working for TC, you also insinuate that I and one of the ones of poor moral standing who do, and am making an attempt to entrap a fellow aviator. If this is the case then I merely wish to be clear on that matter of where you stand.
For the record I do not work for them (that is to say TC or any arm there of). Once again I have merely put forward what my experiences have been. I realise that everyone doesn't share the view or that experience.
We can't stop here! This is BAT country!
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TopperHarley
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Re: Investigated by TC
Highlander, I was in your position... twice. I used to do aerial photography several years back which required us to fly low. On a few occasions I had some farmers and angry cottage weekenders phone up their local airport asking to violate me.
I don't know what you got a letter for, but if you had a good reason being where you were, doing what you were doing, then I would cooperate fully and be as honest as possible.
The first time I got my letter, I was advised by everyone on here to say nothing and tell TC Im getting a lawyer. So I wrote a letter back to TC basically saying I deny any charges against me, it's all BS, Im getting a lawyer, blah blah blah. The inspector phoned me up and just wanted to chat with me about the incident. I told him I was doing aerial photography, and he was completely understanding about it. He told me I should have just mentionned that in the letter the first time, as he said the tone of my letter seemed a little harsh and he thought it made me look guilty. The inspector was great, wished me success with my work, and told me not to worry about and that there was not going to be any follow up.
The following year I got my second letter for the exact same thing. This time I wrote a letter explaining my situation and detailing everything that happened. This inspector wasn't as friendly as the first because he thought it was a little fishy that I had 2 letters in 1 year and that every pilot at my company had received at least 1-2 letters per year. But I explained that I was doing aerial photo work, I told him I always do my best to stay above the legal altitudes, and I told him that as soon as I was contacted by the local airport that there were complaints, I immediately left the area and never returned again. A few weeks later I received a letter from the inspector telling me there will be no further investigation.
So, Id recommend you dont be an ass to the inspector you deal with. If you blatently busted a reg and know about it, well that's a different story. I believe being open and honest is the best policy. For me, it worked out. TC isn't out to get you, but they will if you give them a reason to.
I don't know what you got a letter for, but if you had a good reason being where you were, doing what you were doing, then I would cooperate fully and be as honest as possible.
The first time I got my letter, I was advised by everyone on here to say nothing and tell TC Im getting a lawyer. So I wrote a letter back to TC basically saying I deny any charges against me, it's all BS, Im getting a lawyer, blah blah blah. The inspector phoned me up and just wanted to chat with me about the incident. I told him I was doing aerial photography, and he was completely understanding about it. He told me I should have just mentionned that in the letter the first time, as he said the tone of my letter seemed a little harsh and he thought it made me look guilty. The inspector was great, wished me success with my work, and told me not to worry about and that there was not going to be any follow up.
The following year I got my second letter for the exact same thing. This time I wrote a letter explaining my situation and detailing everything that happened. This inspector wasn't as friendly as the first because he thought it was a little fishy that I had 2 letters in 1 year and that every pilot at my company had received at least 1-2 letters per year. But I explained that I was doing aerial photo work, I told him I always do my best to stay above the legal altitudes, and I told him that as soon as I was contacted by the local airport that there were complaints, I immediately left the area and never returned again. A few weeks later I received a letter from the inspector telling me there will be no further investigation.
So, Id recommend you dont be an ass to the inspector you deal with. If you blatently busted a reg and know about it, well that's a different story. I believe being open and honest is the best policy. For me, it worked out. TC isn't out to get you, but they will if you give them a reason to.
"Never travel faster than your guardian angel can fly." - Mother Theresa
Re: Investigated by TC
I wouldn't respond to anything that didn't detail the actual charges against me. Really, how can you?
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Highlander99
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Re: Investigated by TC
Well it has been a journey of information so far. Thanks to all for posting with advice. There was another crew member on board when this happened. He wrote an incident report as per sms. His report, I thought, was a little off and my letter from TC is almost verbatum of that report. So, there is a report on paper. There is detail of what they are investigating me for in the letter. With that being said is my word against his any good? Or is it lights out, here comes a violation? So far I've gotten 'keep quiet and document everything' out of the posting. Any advice is welcome.
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Cat Driver
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Re: Investigated by TC
True, but you have the right to remain silent and the right to due process.So, Id recommend you dont be an ass to the inspector you deal with.
If you blatently busted a reg and know about it, well that's a different story.
If you blatently bust a regulation you deserve to be violated.
Unfortunately you have no guarantee the TC inspector has the same integrity.I believe being open and honest is the best policy.
Are you calling those of us who have had a totally different experience with TC liars?For me, it worked out. TC isn't out to get you,
Finally we are getting somewhere here, now all we need is to determine just how broad the reasons to get you are.but they will if you give them a reason to.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Investigated by TC
Well, I sure want to know what you did. That way I can judge you....
We all have opinions. If you made an honest mistake - I say be open about it, even if it's one that makes you look a little slow .
If you busted a reg knowingly ir) ignored an approach ban etc. because of arrogance or something negative. I still give you support but only in the sense that you change your ways in the future.
We all have opinions. If you made an honest mistake - I say be open about it, even if it's one that makes you look a little slow
.If you busted a reg knowingly ir) ignored an approach ban etc. because of arrogance or something negative. I still give you support but only in the sense that you change your ways in the future.
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TopperHarley
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Re: Investigated by TC
Lol, way to take my post out of context. No, Im not calling you a liar. Your experiences with TC were obviously different than mine.Cat Driver wrote: Are you calling those of us who have had a totally different experience with TC liars?
I also dealt with TC when I was helping my company get their OC. I wrote the manuals and designed the training program to get approved, and I was going to be the PRM. One of the inspectors was a little cynical as he said our company had been putting off getting their OC for 3 years, so he didn't really take us too seriously, but he answered every question I had, helped me with the manuals and finally got them approved. The other inspector we dealt with was a great guy, very easy going and extremely helpful. Not everyone at TC is like this, I am aware of that.
That's what the CARs and Standards are there for. If you really want to know all the reasons, Im sure you wouldnt mind spending your free time reading over every single CAR, just to cover your own ass.Finally we are getting somewhere here, now all we need is to determine just how broad the reasons to get you are.
"Never travel faster than your guardian angel can fly." - Mother Theresa
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Cat Driver
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Re: Investigated by TC
Are you asking what I did to get screwed over by TC?Well, I sure want to know what you did. That way I can judge you....
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Investigated by TC
I've taken some time to poke through the Aeronautics Act and Transportation Appeal Tribunal rules and the process seems straight forward and fair, in fact it gives you more outs than many regulatory systems.
At the first level, TC investigates an allegation, decides if a violation occurred, and if so decides how to proceed. The investigator can resolve minor issues by talking to the offender. More serious violations require the investigator to review the case with management, make recommendations on how to proceed, and the penalty to impose. If the motor vehicle act were enforced in this same way, the cop pulling you over for speeding would need to review the circumstances with the watch commander before being allowed to write you a ticket. The range of penalties that TC can impose when violating you is greater than what a cop can do with your speeding ticket, but in terms of point in the process they are very similar. Just like a speeding ticket, you have a time limit to fight it and if you don't it's considered an admission of guilt. It is only an allegation until the time limit on fighting it expires or, if you fight it, the tribunal/court rules you guilty.
Appealing to the tribunal is no different then fighting your speeding ticket in provincial traffic court. The cop/TC investigator presents his evidence, you cross examine and present your evidence. The cop/TC investigator may have a lawyer, as can you, but usually doesn't. Just like traffic court, a single tribunal member/judge will listen to the evidence, rule on your guilt or innocence, and impose a penalty if they find you guilty. They can go with what TC originally tried to give you, or they can do something else. The traffic court judge can confirm the fine that goes with the speeding ticket the cop wrote, or they can do something else.
If you disagree with the tribunal finding you guilty, you can appeal to a three member appeal panel. There is no similar easy appeal avenue for your speeding ticket. At this level, it's more likely lawyers will be involved, but it still isn't necessary.
If the tribunal appeal panel renders a decision you disagree with, you still have the ability to appeal to the Federal Court of Canada. Your speeding ticket would go to the Provincial Supreme Court. TC will be represented by a lawyer, and you would almost certainly need one as well.
After this, you can still appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada but only on a point of law. To do so, you need very deep pockets and a legal team.
Simply put, TC's decision to find you guilty and impose a penalty doesn't count for anything unless you consent to it by not fighting it, or they successfully make their case to the tribunal. TC can only offer an opinion and argue it. Only you can judge yourself guilty by not contesting their allegation, or the tribunal can judge you guilty if TC has sufficient proof to satisfy the balance of probability. TC enforcement is absolutely not prosecutor, judge and jury without your consent.
At the first level, TC investigates an allegation, decides if a violation occurred, and if so decides how to proceed. The investigator can resolve minor issues by talking to the offender. More serious violations require the investigator to review the case with management, make recommendations on how to proceed, and the penalty to impose. If the motor vehicle act were enforced in this same way, the cop pulling you over for speeding would need to review the circumstances with the watch commander before being allowed to write you a ticket. The range of penalties that TC can impose when violating you is greater than what a cop can do with your speeding ticket, but in terms of point in the process they are very similar. Just like a speeding ticket, you have a time limit to fight it and if you don't it's considered an admission of guilt. It is only an allegation until the time limit on fighting it expires or, if you fight it, the tribunal/court rules you guilty.
Appealing to the tribunal is no different then fighting your speeding ticket in provincial traffic court. The cop/TC investigator presents his evidence, you cross examine and present your evidence. The cop/TC investigator may have a lawyer, as can you, but usually doesn't. Just like traffic court, a single tribunal member/judge will listen to the evidence, rule on your guilt or innocence, and impose a penalty if they find you guilty. They can go with what TC originally tried to give you, or they can do something else. The traffic court judge can confirm the fine that goes with the speeding ticket the cop wrote, or they can do something else.
If you disagree with the tribunal finding you guilty, you can appeal to a three member appeal panel. There is no similar easy appeal avenue for your speeding ticket. At this level, it's more likely lawyers will be involved, but it still isn't necessary.
If the tribunal appeal panel renders a decision you disagree with, you still have the ability to appeal to the Federal Court of Canada. Your speeding ticket would go to the Provincial Supreme Court. TC will be represented by a lawyer, and you would almost certainly need one as well.
After this, you can still appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada but only on a point of law. To do so, you need very deep pockets and a legal team.
Simply put, TC's decision to find you guilty and impose a penalty doesn't count for anything unless you consent to it by not fighting it, or they successfully make their case to the tribunal. TC can only offer an opinion and argue it. Only you can judge yourself guilty by not contesting their allegation, or the tribunal can judge you guilty if TC has sufficient proof to satisfy the balance of probability. TC enforcement is absolutely not prosecutor, judge and jury without your consent.
