Petition for Family Access to the Flight Deck

[swordfish]

The RAIC pass is issued to you after a thorough security and background check. Based on my confidence in the CSIS process, I conclude that anyone with a RAIC pass does not in any way, constitute a security hazard to any part of aviation. Regrettably, your 7-yo won't qualify for one.

If the legislation is amended, flight crew will get constant requests from passengers to visit the flight deck. It's a pain in the ass having to respond to them, and also to deny them.

The "plastic fork" thing is one of the absurdities I am referring to. The whole spectre of in-flight security has gone off the deep end.

[CD]

It is my fervent position that if you hold a red RAIC pass, you should be allowed in the jumpseat without any questions, providing it is cool with the crew.

It's been noted before, but the "door" has already been opened a crack for commuters: EXEMPTION FROM SUBSECTION 705.27(3) OF THE CANADIAN AVIATION REGULATIONS.

[Wilbur]

Here's a reason for not allowing people in the cockpit of an airliner during revenue flights that has nothing to do with terrorism or CAR's. As an employer, or paying passenger, I would expect the pilots to be focused on their JOB of flying the airplane, not entertaining some snotty nose kid or old aunt Mildred. It's called professionalism.

[Meatservo]

Actually, Wilbur, before commercial pilots became a bunch of semi-educated lower-middle-class bluecollar johnny punchclock machine operators (because this is how employers want us to feel) there used to be a concept of being "an officer and a gentleman" which I suppose carried over from the tradition of the sea captain. Not only was the Captain of an airliner expected to be a competent machine operator, he was expected to look the part, with a well-cut company uniform and a decent haircut, and was expected to behave in a way that was becoming at all times, not just when locked up in the cockpit. He was supposed to convey an air of confidence and wisdom which was calculated to put the passengers at ease. Part of this included interaction with the passengers, including children, from whom he drew most of his mystique.

If you enjoy being perceived by the general public (as I almost guarantee you are) as a semi-literate, overpaid, arrogant blue collar underachiever whose job is "no big deal", you're right in line with the new corporate mentality. Just don't go around calling yourself a "professional", please.

Please understand before you start angrily typing back, I am not calling you names. This is how society perceives pilots, and maybe we deserve it. I probably never would have though aeroplanes were cool if I hadn't had a chance to go up front in flight and want to be like those guys when I grew up.

I have to agree with Rudy, in the end, no petition in Canada is going to have any effect on this reg. It's one of the Americans' favorites!

[spinner2]

Here's a reason for not allowing people in the cockpit of an airliner during revenue flights that has nothing to do with terrorism or CAR's. As an employer, or paying passenger, I would expect the pilots to be focused on their JOB of flying the airplane, not entertaining some snotty nose kid or old aunt Mildred. It's called professionalism.

That's a reason? You have a grossly misguided interpretation of the word "professionalism". You clearly have never been in the flightdeck of an airliner in any capacity.

I have to agree with Rudy, in the end, no petition in Canada is going to have any effect on this reg. It's one of the Americans' favorites!

I agree with your comments meatservo with the exception of the quote above. You may be right that a small petition with a few hundred or thousand signatures may not have legs and will not change things, however, as I posted above, the purpose is to use it to bolster our argument and provide it to the powers that be that have a real shot at changing this. If we take the defeatist attitude and roll over then, you are correct, nothing will ever change the regs.
The agencies responsible for this regulation may have at one time been applauded for it. In fact right after 9/11 no one new what the hell was going on and it might very well have been a good immediate response. That said, it is clear now, with eight or so years passed that the measure should be reviewed and ultimately changed.

[swordfish]

RIGHT ON, meatservo!!! Well said. I'm also one of those throwbacks to the days-gone-by where the image matched the skills and performance, WITHOUT THE EGO.

The way my copilots show up for work these days makes me wonder what happened to professionalism - the whole lot of it...not just the parts today's pilots want to underscore.

[C-GGGQ]

Seems rather silly to me that the new-hire that you just met, have never seen before, and with temporary company ID can be trusted to sit behind you, while your 60+ parents, who've changed your diapers, and supported you throughout your life, aren't allowed to do so...

On another note, I recently flew JAL, YVR-NRT, and they won't even allow you to visit the Flight deck at the end of the flight on the ground...

well to be fair when i worked at aircanada. we couldn't ride jump seat.

[flyinthebug]

meatservo.. very well said!

swordfish.. I suppose it depends on where you work..But i used to have my guys/gals in white shirts and ties from the PA31 up. Other then a few hung over days, I was usually quite proud of how the younger generation respected the old school values as so eloquently pointed out by meatservo (gawd thats an ugly handle though friend lol). Some people used to laugh at the west coast (formerly Baxter Aviation) air crew with our white shirts and epaulettes(sp?)
The guys in jeans that laughed at us.. were the same ones watching us make miles back and forth across the strait all day everyday.. as they were waiting for a 3 pm charter to Phantom lake.

My point is, we looked professional and therefore we were perceived as professionals by our customers and the general public alike. Baxter was always busy because he gained peoples trust.. and part of that was the look of professionalism of his pilots and staff. The public choose to fly with us as we were the best dressed gig in town.. and even the DHC3T or even a -6 showing up WITH THE CAPT IN JEANS.. couldnt really compete with the Baxter faithful. Its all about perception and I cant imagine seeing a 6 yr old kids face light up as a negative or distraction in or out of the cockpit.

Fly safe all.

[Meatservo]

I have to agree with Rudy, in the end, no petition in Canada is going to have any effect on this reg. It's one of the Americans' favorites!

I agree with your comments meatservo with the exception of the quote above. You may be right that a small petition with a few hundred or thousand signatures may not have legs and will not change things, however, as I posted above, the purpose is to use it to bolster our argument and provide it to the powers that be that have a real shot at changing this. If we take the defeatist attitude and roll over then, you are correct, nothing will ever change the regs.
The agencies responsible for this regulation may have at one time been applauded for it. In fact right after 9/11 no one new what the hell was going on and it might very well have been a good immediate response. That said, it is clear now, with eight or so years passed that the measure should be reviewed and ultimately changed.

Well, God loves a trier, I suppose. I think what's really going to happen, is the rulemakers will have a look at this issue, and they will look at it one way: is changing this rule going to make things less safe or more safe? So: worst case scenario, less safe. Some lunatic will enter the unlocked cockpit and incapacitate the crew. Best case, no more or less safe, therefore why bother changing it? Enter the petition, and again, safety is not served by opening the cockpit. Don't get me wrong, I hate this reg, I think being incarcerated behind that little door is ridiculous, I just have trouble picturing "the man" giving up one of the bootless but high-profile "safety measures" they enjoy feeding the public in the post-911 era. You can imagine what would happen: A plane would go down in a violent windshear scenario and the media would concentrate all their firepower on the fact the stupid door was open at the time of the crash. Changing this rule doesn't make anyone any extra money, and it doesn't make things safer, therefore I predict that nobody will pay attention to it. But hey, I agree with the sentiment behind it. No one likes being locked in there. I'll sign your petition.

P.S. flyinthebug, my handle, while I admit it's ugly, is funny to me because of a story I heard at work about a pilot who was less than competent operating the autopilot. He thought it was broken, so he snagged it. The engineer went for a flight with another pilot and they ascertained that it was working properly after all so the engineer wrote in the logbook something like:"exchanged meat servo for serviceable unit. Test flight satisfactory".

[swordfish]

hey meat! That's quite an admission to make in a public forum:

I heard at work about a pilot who was less than competent operating the autopilot. He thought it was broken, so he snagged it. The engineer went for a flight with another pilot and they ascertained that it was working properly after all so the engineer wrote in the logbook something like:"exchanged meat servo for serviceable unit. Test flight satisfactory".

[spinner2]

You can imagine what would happen: A plane would go down in a violent windshear scenario and the media would concentrate all their firepower on the fact the stupid door was open at the time of the crash.

Meatservo I think you are missing the point of the petition and the lobby. It is not aimed at completely reverting back to pre-9/11 policy where the flight deck was open during flight. It is aimed at reviewing and amending current policy that gives immediate family members the same access to the flight deck as stand-by airline employees and others deemed not a security risk by Transport Canada. Many people are allowed in the flight deck other than crew. The point is this: Why would a person who either crew member has never met in his or her lifetime, who is an employee at the same airline, or anyone else for that matter be allowed to sit in the jumpseat with the Captains authorization yet the Captain can not authorize an immediate family member to sit there under the same policy guidelines? It is as simple as that. We are not asking to have people freely coming and going from the flight deck during flight. We are not asking to allow our children to steer the airplane. We are asking for a small, positive, ammendment to a precident that has already been set. The current policy has safely allowed thousands to occupy the jumpseat since 2001. Why would my family members been any different? In fact, in the interest of safety they pose a much lower threat than someone occupying the jumpseat that the crew does not now.

[Meatservo]

Oh, I see.

Well, like I said, I'll sign your petition. I still think it's a shame little boys (or girls I guess) can't go "visit the pilots". When I was a little boy going to the cockpit and being allowed to ask stupid questions for 5 minutes, I always thought that when I was one of those heroes in the front seat I would let other little boys come up front and look out the window and ask stupid questions. A big part of the spirit of aviation is the thrill it gives young people. I guess I'm hijacking your thread. I hope someday your mom or wife can fly in the cockpit with you.

Swordfish, I guess no one can fool you. My little "I heard about a guy at work" thing didn't trick anyone did it?

[spinner2]

Well, like I said, I'll sign your petition. I still think it's a shame little boys (or girls I guess) can't go "visit the pilots". When I was a little boy going to the cockpit and being allowed to ask stupid questions for 5 minutes, I always thought that when I was one of those heroes in the front seat I would let other little boys come up front and look out the window and ask stupid questions. A big part of the spirit of aviation is the thrill it gives young people. I guess I'm hijacking your thread. I hope someday your mom or wife can fly in the cockpit with you.

Meatservo, We thank you very much for your support. You are not hijacking my thread as I welcome the discussion and your input. All comments and opinions are both welcomed and valuable. There are a lot of misconceptions out there about what we are asking and unfortunately, the further people are from understanding the aviation industry (I am not directing this at you) the harder it is to get the point across. This is largely why politicians don't see the importance.
Not to get all gooshy, but my earliest memories of flying were riding on my dad's flight bag, peering out the bubble window of a J2-A helicopter he was flying. This along with many other times spent flying with him over my younger years is what bred my passion for flying. I share this with many other pilots whose love of flying was born this way as well. My dad is now 76, and time is running out for him to have his turn to ride on my "flight bag" (The jumpseat) My mom doesn't like flying much but she did solo a 172 back in the sixties. (they had to talk her down on the radio...lol) She is now battling cancer and her time quickly running out too. My children really don't know much about what I do other than I go away for a week at a time to take people to different places in an airplane. Its a far cry from what I could tell you about flying when I was their age.
So, for some ( again, not directed at you) this is not a pressing issue, but for many of us it is an extremely important one. That is why we ask for the support of all pilots on this effort. Someday they too may fight an issue that they will need the support of every one of us in this small aviation family.

[Cat Driver]

Spinner2 I totally understand where you are coming from and applaud your efforts.

Unfortunately the world is fuc.ed up beyond hope and it seems the inmates are running the asylum when it comes to the bureaucracy and their decision makers.

Maybe the time has come that mother nature will step in and cull the herd so human beings can retain the higher IQ segment of the gene pool.

[North Shore]

Spinner2 - I've often thought about what I would do in your position. What would be the worst that could happen should you say to yourself, "Fcuk it, I'm taking the old man to work today?" Are you likely to get fired? Probably not. Is the event likely to happen again? Nope. I'm sure that your crew would be sympathetic, and could be sworn to secrecy...

[Pratt]

Spinner2 - I've often thought about what I would do in your position. What would be the worst that could happen should you say to yourself, "Fcuk it, I'm taking the old man to work today?" Are you likely to get fired? Probably not. Is the event likely to happen again? Nope. I'm sure that your crew would be sympathetic, and could be sworn to secrecy...

North Shore, I wish I could be as confident as you of the outcome, but I think it would create a shit storm. There are too many people as part of the loop that I would feel confident that it could be contained. I guess probably depends who you are working for.

Having said that I fully support the petition. I also flew as a kid with my father on many occasions in the flight deck, and down the road have had my Father and Grandfather flying with me in the jumpseat. Those were very memorable occasions for them and myself as well.

A known family member certainly poses no more of a threat to the security of a flight than the unknown company person from accounting or stores that now has access to our jumpseat.

[spinner2]

Thanks for the comments guys. As much as I would like to say F,,ck it and just take my pop for a ride, the reality is that I probably would get fired if caught. There is a lot of talk on this board about professionalism and these are the times where one has to follow the rule of the law as much as one does not like it. I have flown with many crew members over the years since 9/11 and all share the same frustration. This is not a one-man crusade to get my family in the air. It is an effort to lend a hand to the other groups already working on the same goal. I am trying to do my part instead of sitting on the sideline and complaining about it. Everyone that signs the petition is doing their part in some small way to contribute. One thing that is for sure, if nobody tries to make these changes then it will definitely never happen.
The petition was started two days ago and has collected over 350 signatures already. These people have chose to make their voices heard and I will make sure that this petition gets to the proper hands so that they are heard. At least we can say we tried!

[Azure]

Several years before 911, my daughter chose to go with dad rather than me on one of those "Take your child to work" days at school. Thanks to AirBC she had a wonderful experience! With a proper pre-flight briefing she knew to hold her questions until after takeoff/landings, and when she grew bored went back and helped the FAs hand out snacks.

Funny thing though, she never had the urge to become a pilot or flight attendant after that.

I had the chance to sit "up there" and did. On one flight, a famous Sask Roughrider gave them both a signed card because the Captain allowed him to remain on the flightdeck during the landing. He was a big guy, but a kitten experiencing something new that day.

[madtrap]

I sympathize completely, however TC Security (plus RCMP, plus CSIS, etc) is absolutely lock-step with the Gringo TSA on this one, and will not likely alter that lest the Americans get a bee in their collective bonnet and depict Canada as being soft on Flight Deck Security. That, make no mistake, is the real risk that is being managed here; the actual security issue with family members is moot, but a bogeyman is indispensable when you’re explaining extreme measures.

If I recall correctly, the FAA never did allow dependants in the Flight Deck (seems like a long time ago…), and now they have institutional leverage to try and make the world adopt their standard. That the rest of the world, save for us and a precious few others, are thumbing their noses and using jumpseats as they please, even into the US, is irrelevant as far as our rule-makers are concerned. The economic impact of cross-border restrictions being imposed would be significant, and whoever allowed the practice would be for the high jump. Our rule-makers have balls, but not their own; cough please.

Am I correct in my impression that there's not much heard of or from the larger carriers on this issue...could it be they don't really want to get a black mark from big brother's score keepers? Sorry if I've missed evidence to the contrary.

All that said, I do wish you luck because we know that it would likely have a salutary effect on safety; where do I sign….

[scrambled_legs]

Side note to the ATC guys commenting on the jumpseat. I believe you actually do have clearance to request the jumpseat as a ride-along request with WestJet and Air Canada. I have had a couple of ATC guys in the last couple of years ride up front to observe. They had prior permission from our ops and were listed on our manifest as authorized to ride jump. I would check it out further if you are interested in doing so. It was a great experience to have AT controllers with us. We learned lots and so did they. Hope to see you up front one of these days.

Spinner, I would love to know how these individuals managed to bypass the following CARs reg in order to access the cockpit. I just recently requested access to the flight deck on a fam flight and was denied. If you can find an exemption like CID did, please forward it to me or post it.

(3) No person shall be admitted to the flight deck of an aeroplane other than
(amended 2002/03/21; previous version)

(a) a flight crew member;
(b) a crew member performing their duties;
(c) an inspector referred to in subsection (1);
(d) in accordance with the procedures specified in the company operations manual,
(i) an employee of the air operator who is not a crew member performing their duties, and
(ii) a pilot, flight engineer or flight attendant employed by a wholly owned subsidiary or a code share partner of the air operator; and
(e) a person who has expertise related to the aeroplane, its equipment or its crew members and who is required to be in the flight deck to provide a service to the air operator.

We're not

a) a flight crew member;
b) a crew member;
c) an inspector;
d) an employee of the airline; or
e) required to have access to provide a service to the airline.

Our union is trying to have our access reinstated and the company is saying that they are following up with the airlines but that it is not possible. On the other hand, I'm sure the company would like nothing more than to have the Familiarization Flight program, and the associated expenses, disappear. Making the program more effective again, wouldn't help the company in eliminating the program, so I have to question how many hours have been spent negotiating with TC and the airlines in granting access. This may be another wedge in the door, so to speak, in helping your cause, so it may be worth looking into.

If you can ask your company how these individuals were allowed access and even put on the manifest, it'd be of great interest. It's good to hear that the few people that have slipped through the cracks, have been helpful.

[CD]

Psssst... It's CD...

You're correct, there are no additional passengers authorized to be admitted to the flight deck, beyond those already noted in the existing regulation and exemption for commuting pilots.

[Cat Driver]

Just a thought about Nav Can employees getting fam flights on the flight deck.

Why not ride the jump seat in the simulator, todays modern sim's are just like the real thing and there is no risk of the sim being hi-jacked without major effort in removing the thing from its mounts in the floor.

Just a thought from someone who is no longer really in touch with reality.

[duster@heart]

Well just fly on Air Georgian then, there doors are open all the time from T/O to Landing.

[spinner2]

Spinner, I would love to know how these individuals managed to bypass the following CARs reg in order to access the cockpit. I just recently requested access to the flight deck on a fam flight and was denied. If you can find an exemption like CID did, please forward it to me or post it.

Hi guys, I will try to recall the circumstances by which we had ATC visitors. Perhaps we could ask the moderator to move this discussion to a new thread or have somebody start one. I would prefer to focus the discussion here on garnering support for regulation change pertaining to family access to the flight deck and the associated petition.

For those wondering where to sign up, here is the link again.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/flig ... index.html

BTW, the program asks for a donation after you sign up however, if you just close the page your signature and comments are recorded and there is no need to leave a donation.

Thanks

[scrambled_legs]

Just a thought about Nav Can employees getting fam flights on the flight deck.

Why not ride the jump seat in the simulator, todays modern sim's are just like the real thing and there is no risk of the sim being hi-jacked without major effort in removing the thing from its mounts in the floor.

Just a thought from someone who is no longer really in touch with reality.

It'd probably add to the understanding and be helpful but I imagine it wouldn't be nearly as helpful as flying a live route in and out of your base and listening to actual clearances issued and the gripes about specific routings/changes/timing/handoffs/local phraseology etc. in and out of your field.

Sorry spinner, I'll stop sidetracking the thread. Although, in a way it's the same issue as you are raising in your petition and might be more effective if you combine it. The more people that are allowed access, the more likely the rules for family will be relaxed as well. It is keeping it at the top of the forum instead of being buried too. Good luck with the petition.

Just a curious question, are all the cockpits equipped with some sort of bathroom facility now, or do you still open the door mid flight when someone has to go? Knowing my wife and road trips, that door would be revolving and not very secure.