KingAir 90 vs Cessna 414-421

[HORUNNER]

Looking for info on cost to run and mait.
Have found a few of each avail and not sure which would be best for personal use?
They are about the same $ and speeds with simular ranges, the 90 will use more fuel but not sure if it will make up for that with the turbine vs piston in the hanger?

[TeePeeCreeper]

Apples and Oranges is what me thinks

[tired of the ground]

This should give you a good starting point.

http://www.planequest.com/operationcosts/default.asp

According to that, the 421/90 are somewhat similar in operating costs. The 414 looks like it would be a bit cheaper to operate.

The cabins of the cessnas are quite a bit smaller than the 90 as far a shoulder/head room.

[iflyforpie]

Looking for info on cost to run and mait.
Have found a few of each avail and not sure which would be best for personal use?
They are about the same $ and speeds with simular ranges, the 90 will use more fuel but not sure if it will make up for that with the turbine vs piston in the hanger?

The personal use in you put in color is a big sinker. Once you go to twin-turbine and pressurized you have to have a private air operators certificate under part 604 which means 7xx style training, maintenance, and operational control. That is why you don't see too many people personally flying anything larger than piston pressurized twins under 12500 like the 414/421 or the Beech Duke.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#604_02

[sky's the limit]

Never flown the 421, but have lots of 90 time, and it was unequivocally the WORST airplane I've ever flown, on a number of levels....!

stl

[HORUNNER]

Is it a big song and dance for this 'private air operators certificate'
or can it be done without to much hassle, not saying it is worth it?
Is this a stupid Q since we are talking about TC

I have been leaning to the 414 but there ar two 90's down south that have been forwarded to me.

[HORUNNER]

Ohh thanks for the link

http://www.planequest.com/operationcosts/default.asp

lots of good info there for me

[ScudRunner]

Is it a big song and dance for this 'private air operators certificate'
or can it be done without to much hassle, not saying it is worth it?
Is this a stupid Q since we are talking about TC

I have been leaning to the 414 but there ar two 90's down south that have been forwarded to me.

Do you mean south like as in the US?? Search around here about the hassles of importing aircraft and the costs associated with it.

[Captain X]

Never flown the 421, but have lots of 90 time, and it was unequivocally the WORST airplane I've ever flown, on a number of levels....!stl

How so? Were you flying the ole -20's. What was so bad about the 90? It can't be that bad, they still build the 90 today.

[nookie201]

I was in the same situation about a year ago, looked at A90's C421's C414's and P-Navajo.
The 90's have the biggest cabin. Operating costs are slightly higher to C421 and P-Navajo.
The initial outlay and insurance were far cheaper on C421 and P-Navajo. -20 Pratts are not
good choice for short and low flights and very expensive to maintain (HSI), My guess the -20 engines is problably what you are looking at on your 90's , they are cheap for that reason.
I ended up with a P-Navajo for initial cost and insurance reasons, the per hour cost is problably $450 (On private use) at current fuel prices.

Obviously both P-Navajo and C421's have geared engines and low TBO's, this drives the costs up over a 340 or 414 but you get much better comfort and speed.

From doing research, budget $550/hr for your king air on private insurance, plus purchase.
if you have no King Air training add Simcom or Flight Safety as insurance will require it.($8K)

Importing, no problem just takes a little bit of time. I've imported a few all without hassle, budget for a C421 approx $13-$16K

Send PM for more info if needed.

-G

[fatdumbandlazy]

Is it a big song and dance for this 'private air operators certificate'
or can it be done without to much hassle, not saying it is worth it?
Is this a stupid Q since we are talking about TC

I have been leaning to the 414 but there ar two 90's down south that have been forwarded to me.

TC has nothing to do with the POC. The CBAA hands them out. From what I've heard it's no easier than getting an AOC. In either case you need to have your ducks in a row and you'll get it.

[ajet32]

The POC is granted by the CBAA. Aside from training and operating manuals the most important thing is an SMS system. This can be purchased from any number of consultants for a fee. Any turbine airplane would be preferable to the C414/421. The geared engines on the C421 and P Navaho are very low TBO and cost a lot to overhaul.

[sky's the limit]

Never flown the 421, but have lots of 90 time, and it was unequivocally the WORST airplane I've ever flown, on a number of levels....!stl

How so? Were you flying the ole -20's. What was so bad about the 90? It can't be that bad, they still build the 90 today.

Some planes, or helicopters for that matter, are good designs that like to fly, handle well, and are a pleasure - the 90 is not one of them.... It's like flying a loaded grain truck with all the inspiration of one. The 200 is better, but the 90 just isn't an inspiring machine at all. Rolls ok though...

stl

[Hedley]

The geared engines on the C421 and P Navaho are very low TBO and cost a lot to overhaul

If you are operating privately, TBO does not apply. If
you have inexperienced pilots, you won't make TBO
anyways, on one of the above.

I think RAM wanted $55k to overhaul the GTSIO-520
in the 421, last time I checked. On a per hour basis,
I would be surprised if a turbine was cheaper than that
to hot section and overhaul.

[20102m2]

The POC is granted by the CBAA. Aside from training and operating manuals the most important thing is an SMS system. This can be purchased from any number of consultants for a fee.

Are these consultants the same CBAA approved auditors that a private operator is required to hire to have the SMS assessed as part of the POC approval process?

It seems the initial and annual admin costs are quite expensive for a private owner to upgrade from a cabin class reciprocating engine non pressurized aircraft to anything turbine powered and pressurized.

[Donald]

The geared engines on the C421 and P Navaho are very low TBO and cost a lot to overhaul.

Sounds like the same excuse everyone gives as to why the DHC-5 with the GE engines is "bad".

[just curious]

No Donald, not "Bad". Hard to find parts for, more expensive to obtain, and a typical political compromise. "Stupid" was the word I was searching for, although that might apply more to the pork-barreling politicain that insisted on them than the engines themselves. They're just un-necessarily annoying.

[Donald]

No dis-agreement on difficulty obtaining parts. My comment was directed at people who complain about low TBO's and certain engines, when really it comes down to the people driving them.

[iflyforpie]

Many engines are low TBO by design and maintenance hogs no matter who drives them. I don't know what the TBO of a GTSIO-520 is but it can't be high and you don't ever see them on condition past 2000 hrs like the bullet-proof TIO-540s run by a bunch of 1000hr wonders on a Ho. Overhaul price is quite expensive too since only a handful of shops do them.

Most of the gearbox problems have been solved with the GTSIO-520 and the lower powered ones (under 400hp) on the 421 are alright provided there is a competent/consistent pilot running them.

[Hedley]

re: 421 gearbox - simply don't drive the engines with the props
which happens when a newbie gets high and fast on final and
pulls the throttles all the way back for extra drag.

It all comes down to the operator.

Same thing about cracking the heads on the GTSIO-520's
in the 421. It's easy not to, if you do what TCM says,
which is not what the newbies do.

[Four1oh]

I've flown both cessna and piper turbocharged piston twins. If I were an owner figuring out what to buy, I'd buy piper, hands down. Cessna turbocharged engines are made of glass, in my experience, and I'd definitely stay away from a 421. Unfortunately I've never flown a Beech... Oh, and turboprops all the way!

[Benwa]

What oil do you use on the 421 Hedley ?

We had problems Shell 20/50 "gunking" the piston rings... less problem with Phillips. How 'bout you ?

Ben

[KMAC]

The 90 and the 414A are NOT apples and oranges price-wise.

We used to run our 414A at a $600/hour + pilot. Progressive maintenance schedule. Ram VII. Very reliable. A pleasure to fly.

We researched the 90 and found that the hourly costs were more like $800-900/hour (for the same speed). I have no beech time so can't really comment otherwise. The scuttlebutt is that they are generally bulletproof, but in my experience, old planes require regular maintenance. There is no escaping it. So, in the end, little to no speed increase, a significantly bigger cabin (though, the long nosed 414 could haul more golf clubs), and a big difference in acquisition and operating costs.

That being said, turbines are relatively effortless from a pilot perspective.

In the end we went for the less popular, but quite a bit better Cheyenne IIXL. Fast, low maintenance, low hassle, reliable, and relatively low acquisition cost and operating costs on a per-mile basis that beat the 414A. Big bang for your buck. I always thought it was kind of funny looking, but it was fun as hell to fly.

Perhaps something to consider.

kmac

[Rowdy]

If the 90 is anything like the 100(damn close)... It's best described as a monkey trying to hump a football when it comes to handling.

I've flown in a 441 and a 404 and both seemed to be much smoother. However I was only "sitting" in the seat and have no long term operational experience with them.

I know the 90 with -20's is underpowered.. but with -28's like the 100's.. she moves a bit better. What are on the newer C90's and GT's?

I personally love the look of the F90...

[ahramin]

Rowdy a 90 doesn't handle anything like a 100. It is quite sporty on the elevator and doesn't drop out of the sky when you pull the power off. The F90 is even better, the only reason they stopped making them was that the performance on the C90s got too close while still being much cheaper.

New C90s are -21s (notice that it is possible to put an s on a word without an apostrophe ). They true out at 245 knots 50 degrees cool of max temp.