Sky Dive Pay

[Antidote]

Hey Diver Driver, quite a thread you got started here.

First of all, let me start by saying I think it's great you got everybody together to discuss the issue of pilot compensation at your DZ. And also that you decided to share the results of this discussion with you fellow avcanadians.

Ultimately, I think Cat Driver has made the most useful interventions in this thread yet. The way to go about this it to look at the business side of this operation, and work out what you think is decent compensation for the pilots in regards to those numbers. Then, agree with the others and negociate, negociate, negociate.

Best of luck to you.

[spiritflight]

Be careful about who you work for......pay isn't everything in an entry level job.

[Highflyinpilot]

Your right pay isnt everything, but you gotta be able to buy a loaf of bread and some bologna a the end of the month too.


It's too bad that it is the way it is out there.

[Cat Driver]

Four jumpers per load and three loads per hour is $405.00 per hour for a 182 or a 206.

I'm thinking that that is a better hourly rate than a school would be able to get for the same type of airplane.

If most of the people who are operating the jump club are volunteers there should be room in that income per hour to pay a commercial pilot.

I am not really familiar with how jump clubs work but I do understand how it should work if anyone hires a pilot with a commercial license, they should reward said pilot with a pay scale that reflects the license the pilot holds.

In a nut shell, @#$! e'm let them use private pilots who by law do not have to be paid.

[Diver Driver]

Four jumpers per load and three loads per hour is $405.00 per hour for a 182 or a 206.

I'm thinking that that is a better hourly rate than a school would be able to get for the same type of airplane.

If most of the people who are operating the jump club are volunteers there should be room in that income per hour to pay a commercial pilot.

I am not really familiar with how jump clubs work but I do understand how it should work if anyone hires a pilot with a commercial license, they should reward said pilot with a pay scale that reflects the license the pilot holds.

In a nut shell, @#$! e'm let them use private pilots who by law do not have to be paid.

Thank you Cat Driver,

The school owns its aircraft outright, everything they make barring maintenance, fuel and oil is profit.

TC dictates that they must register the plane commercially and must have commercially rated pilots to operate it. By law the DZ is required to use commercial pilots and private pilots are not an option.

Are you saying we should change everything to an hourly wage and disregard the old system of pay per load?

I must say I like that option; pilots should be paid for their Duty Day flying or not.

compilot,

Is this more in line of how your DZ works?

[mag check]

What does it cost a sky diver per jump?

And how many do you take per load?

Obviously that really depends on the type of jumper, and type of aircraft Cat.

Experianced jumpers pay 20 bucks for a jump. I jumped at many dz's, and this was the going rate to 12500'
As I said earlier, the only way to make it work is to carry ALOT of students/tandems per load.
185, 182, 206's are not going to carry enough, and I've never seen one do 3 trips to altitude an hour.
The problem is the the jump teams will book most of the usable time on a nice day, and they get an even beter deal than $20 per jump, because they will pay for hundreds of jumps up front.
The money is in the students, and tandems, not the licensed guys.
A Casa with 19 tandems(38 jumpers total) at 250 bucks per head, is $4750 per load.
Not bad for 20 minutes work.
Even just a load of experiance guys, paying $20, would be 760 for 20 minutes.

I will say that the pilots will work for very little, in fact, it is not uncommon to get extra altitude by getting a female jumper to flash the pilots. This is usually good for 5000' extra, 17500 instead of 12500.

[Diver Driver]

185, 182, 206's are not going to carry enough, and I've never seen one do 3 trips to altitude an hour.

Altitude for first jump students is between 3000 to 3500 AGL. A 182 or 206 can easily do a load in under 20 minutes (airframe time). It can be done, I am not talking total time or downtime between loads.

[mag check]

185, 182, 206's are not going to carry enough, and I've never seen one do 3 trips to altitude an hour.

Altitude for first jump students is between 3000 to 3500 AGL. A 182 or 206 can easily do a load in under 20 minutes (airframe time). It can be done, I am not talking total time or downtime between loads.

Sorry, didn't realize you were doing hop and pops, or static lines.
The dz's I used to go to, did AFF.
A 182 has trouble doing 2 loads an hour for AFF students.

[Hedley]

Pilots are their own worst enemies. Any dumper pilot that
requests reasonable pay will be replaced by a lower-time
pilot that does not. HIgh supply of jumper pilots, low
demand.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: unions exist to
protect pilots from each other, not from management.

[Cat Driver]

Thank you Cat Driver,

The school owns its aircraft outright, everything they make barring maintenance, fuel and oil is profit.

O.K.

Ask for what you feel you are worth, if they do not meet your request don't fly for them.

[iflyforpie]

$405/hr is right between our 206 and 182 charter rates. Lots of gravy on a 182 and a decent but not exorbitant rate for a 206. Insurance is probably a bit higher for jump planes but not enough to explain the huge differences in pay between a jump pilot and others in the charter industry flying practically the same aircraft.

I wonder why TC requires commercially registered aircraft and commercial pilots for sky divers when similar 'club type' organizations like glider clubs use private planes and pilots (many of whom fly for free).

[mag check]

I wonder why TC requires commercially registered aircraft and commercial pilots for sky divers when similar 'club type' organizations like glider clubs use private planes and pilots (many of whom fly for free).

Because they are carrying the paying public.

[Hedley]

why TC requires commercially registered aircraft and commercial pilots for sky divers when similar 'club type' organizations like glider clubs use private planes and pilots (many of whom fly for free).

I have had this discussion with Transport several times before,
with no progress. Their opinion is that ALL skydiving, whether
or not it is a commercial activity, requires a 702 OC, and if you
don't like it, they will happily slap you with a $50,000 fine, which
the Tribunal eagerly reaffirmed.

This is nonsense, of course.

For example: not all flight training is commercial - if I own my own
airplane, I can teach my kid to fly on it. But if I offer the service to
the public, I need an FTU OC. Makes sense.

But if my kid wants to parachute out of my Maule, I must get
a 702 OC even though no money changed hands, and no service
was ever offered to the public.

I agree, it is another mystery why glider ops - which offer a
commercial air service to the public - do not require an OC.

It is best, sometimes, not to try to make sense of Transport's
positions, and merely simply learn what they are, and accept
them.

[Cat Driver]

It is best, sometimes, not to try to make sense of Transport's
positions, and merely simply learn what they are, and accept
them.

And try and avoid them like the Bubonic Plague.

[iflyforpie]

I wonder why TC requires commercially registered aircraft and commercial pilots for sky divers when similar 'club type' organizations like glider clubs use private planes and pilots (many of whom fly for free).

Because they are carrying the paying public.

I don't see how a guy with two parachutes by the open door of a 206 is all that different from a guy being towed in a glider. They are both paying, they are both in control of their own destiny if released above a certain altitude and they are both screwed if an engine fails right after takeoff.

It is best, sometimes, not to try to make sense of Transport's
positions, and merely simply learn what they are, and accept
them.

And try and avoid them like the Bubonic Plague

[FlyingFiremenC/PGSon]

you can't hire a babysitter for what you guys are talking about...sad...

[Diver Driver]

OK Guys,

Lots of discussion but we are starting to digress.

Our proposal seems to be pretty close to the discussion going on. This tells me that we are not asking for anything unreasonable.

If anybody has anything new to add great but it looks like most everyone is pretty much on the same page. I will take this to the other pilots and we will go from there.

I'll let you all know how things go in a couple of weeks.

Thanks again

[Giveitago]

Diver Driver

If you want some answers P.M me. But I won't go into details on this open forum.

[Highflyinpilot]

off topic here, but I dont think i'd be able to jump out of a plane at say 10k feet


carry on

[anonymity]

Simple solution, Drop zone charges a "pilot sur-charge"(ie; fuel sur-charge)make it 3 per 1st
jump student and 4 per for medium loads(graduated loads 4-5000') and 5 for high loads. The sur charge goes directly to the pilot and you need a min just for being there. People are used to sur-charges and and should only complain for a short time. The ones who will complain most are the high jumpers. I think if they don't already, they could just pack a few 1st jump chutes to make up the difference in cost. I have 10 jumps and all paid for by packing. 1st jump students won't even care about the charge, the DZ already has their cost covered in the 250.
BUT THE TRUTH IS GREED DRIVES THE OWNERS OF THIS AS WITH ALL BUSINESSES AND COULD AFFORD TO PAY MORE, BUT WONT BECAUSE THEY WILL ALWAYS FIND A PILOT WHO WILL PIMP HIMSELF OUT FOR THE 300HRS OF EXPERIENCE,END OF RANT. GOOD LUCK, LET US KNOW THE RESULTS.

[Diver Driver]

Giveitago,

I have sent you a pm. Looking forward to what you have to say.

[Cat Driver]

Are there restraints for each jumper such as seat belts or single point restraints?

[Cadismack]

Seat belts for everyone in the plane.

[Diver Driver]

Are there restraints for each jumper such as seat belts or single point restraints?

Yes

[Cat Driver]

The reason I asked was many years ago I was asked to fly some jumpers in a 185.

There was only the pilot seat in it and no restraints and they had no regard whatsoever for all up weight.

Anyhow it was a real gong show and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.