Sky Dive Pay

[Giveitago]

Diver Driver

Check you P.Ms

Give

[x-wind]

My first year in commercial aviation. Must of did close to 1200 hours, near 2000 jumpers.

Flight instructor all week, skydive pilot on weekends.

Dollar a jumper.

I lived at mom and pop's. That made it easy...and enjoyable.

[mag check]

The reason I asked was many years ago I was asked to fly some jumpers in a 185.

There was only the pilot seat in it and no restraints and they had no regard whatsoever for all up weight.

Anyhow it was a real gong show and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

That must have been quite a fly by night operation.
I have jumped at may dz's, and have never seen that. Everyone wears a belt to atleast 1500'
After that the jumpers would get out if there was a problem, and leave the pilot to his destiny

[nortont]

The reason I asked was many years ago I was asked to fly some jumpers in a 185.

There was only the pilot seat in it and no restraints and they had no regard whatsoever for all up weight.

Anyhow it was a real gong show and I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

That must have been quite a fly by night operation.
I have jumped at may dz's, and have never seen that. Everyone wears a belt to atleast 1500'
After that the jumpers would get out if there was a problem, and leave the pilot to his destiny

Well not back in Cat's days, Old school.

[Pete]

The one near Gananoque I can bet doesnt pay.

He told me to come out a couple years ago to meet him. I asked what the pay was and never got back to me. Seemed like a real ass. Almost as if he preyed on the wealthy young aviation nuts who can afford to work for nothing and be supported by his/her parents.

Had a huge list of what his pilots cant be (married, over 35 etc etc).

Im not pointing fingers and I didnt mention a company name...but I felt this was horrible and no one should work for anyone who preaches human rights that are 100 years old...

I am glad I didnt go out there...I got a great job not too long after and have great bosses ever since!

[yfly]

Just to put things in perspective, when my daughter was babysitting 8 years ago, she was paid $8/hr.

In 1968, I was getting $2 per score card load clay pigeons at a skeet range with a daily minimum of $20 guaranteed. Typically, I made $40.

Neither of those jobs require education or even a thought for that matter.

I don't know the jump business but how about suggesting a minimum jump fee of say $20/load to be split by the number of jumpers? The club should be responsible for a minimum daily fee to cover your costs.

[nortont]

The one near Gananoque I can bet doesnt pay.

He told me to come out a couple years ago to meet him. I asked what the pay was and never got back to me. Seemed like a real ass. Almost as if he preyed on the wealthy young aviation nuts who can afford to work for nothing and be supported by his/her parents.

Had a huge list of what his pilots cant be (married, over 35 etc etc).

Im not pointing fingers and I didnt mention a company name...but I felt this was horrible and no one should work for anyone who preaches human rights that are 100 years old...

I am glad I didnt go out there...I got a great job not too long after and have great bosses ever since!

Better Yet, Go work for Skydive To@#nto. You get to pay to take his $1000 jump pilot course ....... phhhh.

[PAJ]

There is an ad in the Feb edition of COPA Flight from Skydive To@#nto ... Gain experience and flying hours.

No mention of any course you have to pay for.

[Hedley]

I didnt mention a company name

Pilots like to point fingers at "unscrupulous" operators, but
I'll bet the operator's fax machine is choked with resumes
from 200 hours wonders that all offer to fly for free, and
to pay for their training.

Hard to blame an operator in a situation like that.

Like I've said before and I'm sure I will say again,
unions exist to protect pilots from each other, because
they are their own worst enemies.

If pilots refused to work for free, operators would have
to pay a reasonable wage.

If you want to know who the problem is, look in the mirror.

[jumperdumper]

Some places pay well & give you perks like free jumps while others consider it your privilage to be flying there for them.

What gets me pissed is that while a pilot is getting very litte compensation for their time at the DZ the jump instructor/camera guy/tandem master can make up to $35 a jump. You do the math if he does 5 loads.
Even packers make $5 bucks a pack job.


So you tell me what you think is fair?

Bottom line is they want you for free & will exploit the fact that you are building time.

Untill pilots stop cutting each others throats for work this will never change.

[Hedley]

Jump pilots are a commodity. The price of a commodity is
set by the supply of, and the demand for, the commodity.

When the supply is large, and the demand is low, the price
will be low. It can be zero. It can even cross the origin and
go negative ie jump pilots paying X dollars per flight.

[mag check]

If pilots refused to work for free, operators would have
to pay a reasonable wage.

Yes, then there would be a few pilots world wide making good money, instead of many making a little, because most operators would go under.
As we all know, most operators are not making a fortune in this game, so the problem is not with them, or the pilots who will work cheap, the problem is with the consumer who wants everything for cheap.
The only way that pilots will get the pay that they "deserve" is to have air travel go back to the way it was in the beginning, only the very wealthy travel by air.
It can't happen with a system that allows anyone to fly from Toronto to Orlando for $99.

[mattedfred]

exactly and that is why $99 return fairs are not sustainable

air travel is not a right

i do not support the subsidization of air travel, flight training etc even though i have benefited from it

pilots should pay the real cost of flight training and passengers should pay the real cost of air travel

i can accept the fact that this will mean less pilots and less passengers but the pilots and passengers that remain or exist in an industry that is sustainable in the long run will be better off

[Hedley]

most operators would go under (if pilots didn't work for free)

This is a silly argument. Air Canada and Westjet don't make their
pilots work for free. They don't make their flight attendants, ramp
rats, counter agents, mechanics or management staff work for
free either. They don't expect the shareholders to not expect
a dividend, either.

Years ago, flight instructors were paid sh1t. The argument was that
if they were paid even minimum wage, students would go away.

What male bovine excrement. Since then, insurance has soared,
fuel costs have soared, and students still keep training. And instructor
are still paid 1970's starvation wages. Why? Because of pilot
supply and demand.

I say again, if you want to know who is the problem, look in the mirror.

[mag check]

Hedley,

Where did you get that quote?
I didn't say that pilots should work for free, it seems you put two quotes together?

Don't AC and West Jet both lose money, along with basicly all the other major operators?

I really don't care, cause the pilots on those flights make excellent pay, so those aren't really what we are talking about.

It's the smaller operators, like the skydive company's in Canada, where the jump season is so short, and is such a niche market, that at the end of the year are lucky to still be in business.

The best small DZ's I have been to were the ones that had the owner of the place as the primary pilot.
I think that is the only way some of these places can survive.

I'll say it again,
To make money running a DZ, you should:
be located in Florida, Arizona, SoCal,
cater to either AFF students or tandems, discourage any teams,
run the largest aircraft that the population base will support, and
do as much of the flying as you can yourself.

[Pete]

Pilots like to point fingers at "unscrupulous" operators, but
I'll bet the operator's fax machine is choked with resumes
from 200 hours wonders that all offer to fly for free, and
to pay for their training.

Hard to blame an operator in a situation like that.

Like I've said before and I'm sure I will say again,
unions exist to protect pilots from each other, because
they are their own worst enemies.

If pilots refused to work for free, operators would have
to pay a reasonable wage.

If you want to know who the problem is, look in the mirror.

Its just the way he went around it, he was a pretty big jerk off about what he took advantage of, and I guess over the years realized that there are wealthy kids who can work for free and will for hours.....or cbc weather reporters *cough* (direct from the site btw) ...meh...why even debate this...

I guess it boils down to morals. there are great operators out there...people like this guy or skydive TO just arent worth it unless you can afford to take the easy way out...who knows if that catches up with pilots...i would hope so

[Diver Driver]

Like I've said before and I'm sure I will say again,
unions exist to protect pilots from each other, because
they are their own worst enemies.

If pilots refused to work for free, operators would have
to pay a reasonable wage.

If you want to know who the problem is, look in the mirror.

This is so true. I said the same thing at our meeting "Who's fault is it that the pilots are getting paid under the current system?....It's the pilots."

Who's fault is it really? It's the pilots who worked for little to nothing before most of the pilots on this forum and myself trained for our commercial license. As the song goes "We didn't start the fire.".

The question is; Can we make it a little bit better for the young guys that are coming behind us?

Paying a pilot what he or she is worth in any entry level job will not break any company or sky dive club. Each business has to make their own business decisions whether to increase fees or not to pay whatever expenses they have. Any company who says different is saying it for their own personal gain and wants to scare you into taking what ever they want to pay.

[MrWings]

Pilots like to point fingers at "unscrupulous" operators, but
I'll bet the operator's fax machine is choked with resumes
from 200 hours wonders that all offer to fly for free, and
to pay for their training.

Hard to blame an operator in a situation like that.

Like I've said before and I'm sure I will say again,
unions exist to protect pilots from each other, because
they are their own worst enemies.

If pilots refused to work for free, operators would have
to pay a reasonable wage.

If you want to know who the problem is, look in the mirror.

Good post.

Let's say you run a gas station and you need a weekend pump jockey.

You get a 32 year old married man with 2 kids and he says he needs $20/hour to support his family.

Then a 16 year old student comes along who says he'll work for free on the weekends because he loves to be around cars.

Who do you hire?

[Diver Driver]

Good post.

Let's say you run a gas station and you need a weekend pump jockey.

You get a 32 year old married man with 2 kids and he says he needs $20/hour to support his family.

Then a 16 year old student comes along who says he'll work for free on the weekends because he loves to be around cars.

Who do you hire?

You have to hire the the 32 year old man or the kid at a rate dictated by your provincial labour code as a minimum. And right up until the recent economy crash (and it still would be true now) he would have to pay a few dollars an hour above that.

[mag check]

Paying a pilot what he or she is worth in any entry level job will not break any company or sky dive club.

Are you kidding?

So you are saying that a dz that would now have to pay their pilot in accordance with some grand scale based on what a pilot is "worth" won't affect their bottom line, and more than likely push them out of business?

AC seems to think that their pilots are "worth" about $150000 per year. So about $37500 per 4 months work.
4 months is about what a Canadian dz is open for each year, and if they have on average 4 pilots flying, wouldn't paying $150000 for pilot wages have a major impact on company operations?
That's 7500 jumpers at 20 bucks just to pay for the pilots. Very few DZ's even drop 7500 jumpers all year.

[Hedley]

AC seems to think that their pilots are "worth" about $150000 per year

Wrong - I am sure that AC's management thinks that pilots are worth
considerably less than that.

However, I am sure that the AC pilot union would agree with your
statement.

See the difference? It's the pilot's union that protects pilots from
undercutting each other.

This really isn't very hard to understand. Has no one here ever
taken a single course in economics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent

[Diver Driver]

Are you kidding?

So you are saying that a dz that would now have to pay their pilot in accordance with some grand scale based on what a pilot is "worth" won't affect their bottom line, and more than likely push them out of business?

AC seems to think that their pilots are "worth" about $150000 per year. So about $37500 per 4 months work.
4 months is about what a Canadian dz is open for each year, and if they have on average 4 pilots flying, wouldn't paying $150000 for pilot wages have a major impact on company operations?
That's 7500 jumpers at 20 bucks just to pay for the pilots. Very few DZ's even drop 7500 jumpers all year.

Is an entry level pilot worth the same as a $150 000 pilot for AC? No

Is he or she worth less than minimum wage? No

Should a pilot who is scheduled to be a DZ sit out there for free with no minimum amount of compensation? No

It needs to be "worth" something to a DZ to have a pilot available to provide a service they need.

[Shiny Side Up]

You get a 32 year old married man with 2 kids and he says he needs $20/hour to support his family.

Then a 16 year old student comes along who says he'll work for free on the weekends because he loves to be around cars.

Who do you hire?

I hire the 16 year old kid, and still pay him the wage I had posted originally which would be somewhere around 10-12 bucks an hour, because lets face it, its pumping gas. If our 32 year old is still looking at pumping gas as a career option he probably ain't worth 20 bucks an hour, the fact that he has 2 kids is his poor planning, I ain't running a charity here.

No sound business runs on the backs of volunteers. If you ain't paying them, they have no obligation to you either.

Pretty sure if you're running a skydive operation you could convince people to pony up a higher price for the service if you were employing good workers (including the pilots) to do the work than a bunch of volunteers. Once again though it never suprises me how small a price people put on their own safety and well being.

[mag check]

Is he or she worth less than minimum wage? No

Should a pilot who is scheduled to be a DZ sit out there for free with no minimum amount of compensation? No

It needs to be "worth" something to a DZ to have a pilot available to provide a service they need.

Ok, let me try a different way, are you an employee, or are you a pilot on contract to them?

If you are an employee, then by all means, demand at least minimum wage.
If you are contracting to them, then "suck it up buttercup".
It's no different then someone selling cars on commission, or clothes in a retail store.
The guy selling cars on commission might not get paid for a month if he doesn't sell anything.

[MrWings]

Pretty sure if you're running a skydive operation you could convince people to pony up a higher price for the service if you were employing good workers (including the pilots) to do the work than a bunch of volunteers.

If there were a bunch of planes full of skydivers crashing on takeoff being commanded by inexperienced pilots, then maybe. But pilot related skydive incidents are rare.

As long as the pilot gets the divers up and the plane down without pranging it, why does the operator care?

The operators do their risk/cost analysis. They know what the pilot is worth to them. And at a dime-a-dozen, they have a pocket full of dimes.

I'm not advocating for skydive operators to treat their pilots like crap. I'm just agreeing with the point that you shouldn't be acting the role.