Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

[_dwj_]

first off _dwj_ click your heels 3 times and go f__k your self you are an idiot!!
Second where does it say in the limitations of either a Dash 8-300 or the new Dash 9Q400 that use of the Auto Pilot is prohibited in icing conditions. A reference please. I am typed on these airplanesand I am not aware of such a limitation. I am not saying that hand flying isn't the right thing to do ro that it shouldn't be done. Just show me a limitation that says not to use the autopilot. If it should be a limitation then Transport Canada and the FAA and JAA should be held accountable as they certified the aircraft. Flame away !

If you actually bother reading my post you would see that the statement is from the NTSB investigator, not from me. The same story has just been aired on the CTV news.

Sure, I will go and @#$! myself, and after that I think I will make a note never fly in a Dash 8 from YYC in case you are at the controls.

[_dwj_]

_dwj_ what good would it do to explain to you if you already are so sure you know all about aircraft icing in flight?

I don't remember ever saying that.

The best I can do is tell you that from having flown airplanes in icing conditions for decades I personally believe that I can tell what type of icing I am picking up and how best to deal with the situation.

I agree with you, however that was not the question. It was: how do you know at what point the ice is dangerous, i.e. you are in imminent danger of stall.

And also, if experience lets you determine this, how come there are still so many fatal icing accidents by experienced pilots? Here is a quote from an NTSB review of aircraft icing accidents:

Approximately 40% of the GA accident pilots had 1,000 or less total flight hours, and 22% of the pilots had 500 or less hours of flight time. Surprisingly, 26% of the pilots had over 3000 hours of flight time, with 31 of these pilots logging over 10,000 flight hours. This suggests that both experienced and inexperience pilots are susceptible to airframe icing hazards.

I believe you suggested that I should not give my opinions over on the flight training forums because you did not like my delivery, why would you be wanting my opinions here?

I think I might have flamed you once, but I don't remember ever saying you should not give your opinions. If I don't like your delivery I might flame you, but so what? Have a look at all the ridiculous flames in this topic.

[double-j]

I think I might have flamed you once, but I don't remember ever saying you should not give your opinions. If I don't like your delivery I might flame you, but so what? Have a look at all the ridiculous flames in this topic.

I think many of these 'flames' are warranted as you seem to be above your head on this subject, yet you seem to try to justify yourself..

[ScudRunner]

Just throwing this out there, if you reference this picture of the overhead panel. http://www.airliners.net/photo/QantasLi ... 1128292/L/

There is a switch on the Ice Protection sub panel that says "REF SPEEDS" I'm curious as to how much this would alter the speeds in this setting's and hypothetically left in the normal or off position could this have been a factor in this accident.
I'm sure the good people down at the NTSB will be looking into this eventually but are there any Q400 Drivers on here that could shed some light?

[Cat Driver]

I agree with you, however that was not the question. It was: how do you know at what point the ice is dangerous, i.e. you are in imminent danger of stall.

From experience _dwj_ many thousands of hours of experience which you as a private pilot flying a Cessna 172 obviously do not have.

[Doc]

I agree with you, however that was not the question. It was: how do you know at what point the ice is dangerous, i.e. you are in imminent danger of stall.

From experience _dwj_ many thousands of hours of experience which you as a private pilot flying a Cessna 172 obviously do not have.

dwj......I'll field your question. An airplane starts to get a certain feel. Kind of like a fat white chick with no rhythm at the prom. You already know you have ice. You can see ice building on the wiper blade. Or in the case of your 172, on the thermometer probe. The climbs become sluggish, the airspeed starts to bleed off. Then the altimeter slowly starts to unwind. You can no longer see out of an unheated windshield. You get that feeling, that maybe you should be on the ground watching the Leafs get the crap kicked out of them. Now, your ass starts to munch on your seat. Your armpits get a little sticky. Most of the time, if you have all these symptoms, it's very likely too late. It can be quite sneaky, our old friend ice. But with some exposure, you will, with luck, know when to get out of Dodge.

In the case of severe ice. That is rapid accumulation, often times you will actually hear it hitting the airframe. It can be very noisy. If you ever "hear" ice arriving.....turn the @#$! around...NOW! You may have only a very short time to react.

Defense? If you know where the cloud deck is, go for it. Nose down, speed up. This will prevent the ice from forming under the wing, which will stall you right now. Under the cloud...land. Land on the 401 if you have to. We will torture your ass on avcanada....but you might live. Try to fly home....you may well not. I'm talking your 172, now. Do not attempt this in a Boeing!


I've been half way there. I'll bet Cat has been, probably many others as well. There is a lot of experience here. Pay attention.

[ajet32]

_dwj_
Not sure where the NTSB said that, I see they are now reporting that A) no indication of SEVERE icing and B) NO REASON not to be on autopilot at that point in the approach. The crew were doing everything by the book. Thats the way airline pilots are trained.
It is a limitation that the A/P not be used in severe icing, that definition is in the AIM if you happen to have one, it in a nutshell is severe icing is ice accredidation that the aircraft deicing systems cannot cope with, further it will result in a loss of performance. I ran into what may very well have been severe about 10 years ago in unreported freezing rain in Northern Saskatchewan. I was hand flying and my response was what the f__k is wrong with this airplane. At the time I had 5 years flying that type a DASH 8 -100 series. It can get you in a hurry, when you have some real life flying experience in a large airplane feel free to flame me.
This was just released , I found it on the BBC.com.

[Highflyinpilot]

"your ass starts to munch on you seat"

Now that is a funny way to put it.


Sorry, I should not be saying that in a thread of this nature, but it was funny.


Again my condolences to all involved.

[Cat Driver]

I've been half way there. I'll bet Cat has been, probably many others as well. There is a lot of experience here. Pay attention.

Yes, several times.

It has been a while though since I had an airplane get so iced up I was unable to maintain altitude with climb power.

It was in March of 2000 over Cario Egypt.

[Canoehead]

I'm so sick of all the speculation and the experts that have come out of the woodwork. All for what? To get everybody riled up? To get their own 15 minutes of face time? I'm not at all impressed with the NTSB on this one. Feeding the media little bits and pieces of CVR/FDR information... for what? So they can give their spin on what happened? Imagine, even the NTSB is looking to make this so 'FOX-like'. Where is peoples' integrity here? Then there's the media. If they can't get much more than about 50% accuracy in any aviation reporting, what about everything else they report? I don't think I can trust much of it. It's really quite pathetic. Then to top it all off, you read an article on cbc.ca, then read the comments from the readers below... everyone is a DH8 driver, and expert.

Why doesn't everyone just sit on it, and wait for at least an interim report to be released.?


The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouths of fools pour out folly.
Prov 15:2

Canoehead (a DH8 driver)

[c170b53]

If just clicked into this thread and I as usual there's the usual. We are talking about Tail stall due to ice build-up here are we not? Thats where increasing your speed or pushing the nose down will kill you. And oh I am a private pilot with ah.. you guessed it 170B. For this aircraft's altitude, recovery obviously wasn't an option if the tail stall occurred.

[orbit]

As per ajet32...
"I ran into what may very well have been severe about 10 years ago in unreported freezing rain in Northern Saskatchewan. I was hand flying and my response was what the f__k is wrong with this airplane. At the time I had 5 years flying that type a DASH 8 -100 series. It can get you in a hurry".....
Well said of someone who reacts....to conditions!call it talent?
I like the posts here apart from the heckeling; everyone has their opion so where I',m going here is we all learn from sorry to say from those incidents.
I went and reviewed my icing stuff....but as ajet32 notes; and it's either you call your shots and hope it's right...with the video aires on the side of caution like ajet32 suggested flying without A/P just to check even..as per NASA video strongly suggests that,,
That being said as Discovery channel analyses these accidents and usually results surmount to more than just the one item/person to blame in modern avaition; crm and all the systems we work with the accident may have been accumulation of things...

..and my condolonces to the lives lost.

[swordfish]

. asked:

There is a switch on the Ice Protection sub panel that says "REF SPEEDS" I'm curious as to how much this would alter the speeds in this setting's and hypothetically left in the normal or off position could this have been a factor in this accident.
I'm sure the good people down at the NTSB will be looking into this eventually but are there any Q400 Drivers on here that could shed some light?

There's a good discussion of this on page 8 of the topic by big dog, who obviously has some knowledge of the subject.

[whiteguy]

first off _dwj_ click your heels 3 times and go f__k your self you are an idiot!!
Second where does it say in the limitations of either a Dash 8-300 or the new Dash 9Q400 that use of the Auto Pilot is prohibited in icing conditions. A reference please. I am typed on these airplanesand I am not aware of such a limitation. I am not saying that hand flying isn't the right thing to do ro that it shouldn't be done. Just show me a limitation that says not to use the autopilot. If it should be a limitation then Transport Canada and the FAA and JAA should be held accountable as they certified the aircraft. Flame away !

If you actually bother reading my post you would see that the statement is from the NTSB investigator, not from me. The same story has just been aired on the CTV news.

Sure, I will go and @#$! myself, and after that I think I will make a note never fly in a Dash 8 from YYC in case you are at the controls.

Every news outlet including CTV have been quoting the NTSB wrong about the use of the autopilot. The NTSB spokesman quoted from the Q400 AFM that the manufacturer "recommends disconnecting the autopilot in SEVERE icing". All the news programs have been leaving out the word "severe" when quoting this statement. The NTSB also said that they not seen any indication of severe icing from the information they have so far. No other aircraft reported severe icing that night. Don't believe everything you see or hear on teh new they are just trying to sell the story!

[Boobie Toucher]

Here is my speculation for those that hate speculation:

Simply put-

1) There wasnt enough icing to crash a Dash 8 that night. (Even if you take the far off chance that the systems were "showing" functioning but somehow werent.)

2) Pilot error. Got too slow and stalled...(Not a tail stall either. Thats pretty much impossible unless only the tail boots malfunctioned and were severely iced up which we can pretty much rule out.)

The Dash 8 has spent over 25yrs flying in icing without ever killing someone. Its probably the best plane ever made for winter flying. So unless they find out the aircraft had a major malfunction in the last 10 miles of the trip they are going to blame this on Pilot error.

Yes I fly Dash 8s.

[station60]

Probally one of the most ignorant and disgusting comments about this crash. I want to find this guy and slice his throat.

http://www.michael-crook.com/2009/02/13 ... mment-1925

[HighBypass]

Why doesn't everyone just sit on it, and wait for at least an interim report to be released.?


The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouths of fools pour out folly.
Prov 15:2


Well said Canoehead. Obviously not many avcanadians have this higher level of wisdom. the evidence is overwhelming. Cheers to those who do.

God Bless and fly safe.

[Johnny#5]

Not sure if it was mentioned, but could there have been an asymmetric flap extension coupled with moderate ice? I guess the FDR might pick that up...dont know

[orbit]

Boobie Toucher I
also am a great fan of D 8's and find it hard to believe what happened
...and you being a seasoned pilot on them you may have something there on why it went down
,,I still find all the speculation is early even with NSTB but nevertheless good for us all to think of it after all helps us all in the process; call it problem solving?

[bmc]

"An airplane starts to get a certain feel. Kind of like a fat white chick with no rhythm at the prom."

"You get that feeling, that maybe you should be on the ground watching the Leafs get the crap kicked out of them."

"Now, your ass starts to munch on your seat. "

I am so going to use those lines from now on. Those are just brilliant.

[bob sacamano]

first off _dwj_ click your heels 3 times and go f__k your self you are an idiot!!
Second where does it say in the limitations of either a Dash 8-300 or the new Dash 9Q400 that use of the Auto Pilot is prohibited in icing conditions. A reference please. I am typed on these airplanesand I am not aware of such a limitation. I am not saying that hand flying isn't the right thing to do ro that it shouldn't be done. Just show me a limitation that says not to use the autopilot. If it should be a limitation then Transport Canada and the FAA and JAA should be held accountable as they certified the aircraft. Flame away !

Autopilot must be disengaged in severe icing. Want a reference or you know this?

[Canoehead]

Probally one of the most ignorant and disgusting comments about this crash. I want to find this guy and slice his throat.

http://www.michael-crook.com/2009/02/13 ... mment-1925

I wouldn't even bother looking at this website, let alone leaving him any type of comment. He's not worth the bandwidth, and is simply looking for attention. Even if you tell him he's a knob, he gets excited just from having a response. Sadly, he was likely abused as a child.

[rightseatwonder]

Wow. this Michael crook guy better watch his ass... jesus!


p.s seriously one of the weirdest looking dudes ever ... as a side note

[ScudRunner]

. asked:

There is a switch on the Ice Protection sub panel that says "REF SPEEDS" I'm curious as to how much this would alter the speeds in this setting's and hypothetically left in the normal or off position could this have been a factor in this accident.
I'm sure the good people down at the NTSB will be looking into this eventually but are there any Q400 Drivers on here that could shed some light?

There's a good discussion of this on page 8 of the topic by big dog, who obviously has some knowledge of the subject.

Thanks I missed that between all the I know more about icing than you, nu uh my balls are bigger talk.

[Doc]

This Michael Crook would look good face down in Rikki Lake!!