IATRA vs. ATPL in Employer's Eyes

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Hi all. I am currently flying as an F/O on a PC-12 and am thinking of moving up to a job in a tier 3 operation. I wrote the IATRA last March to beef up my resume a little, and am now possibly thinking of writing the ATPL. I have 1125 TT, 400 F/O turbine, 600 PIC (65 multi PIC) and a current group 1 rating. I have all the requirements for the ATPL except the total time and the 25 night PIC X/C (16 hours to go).

My question is should I write the ATPL even though I might not get it signed off within 2 years (seeing that I would still be an F/O and might not get the required night PIC X/C), just to further beef up my resume? Or, would the IATRA hold the same weight as the ATPL in the employer's eyes until such time that I get more hours and write the A's in prep to move the left seat?

Just looking for a little insight from the people that might have been in this same situation. Thanks!

[kfecteau]

Do you know that you can change you 16h Pic x/C for 32h F/O x/C?

ATPL is better and at leat rent a 152 to finish it at all. Plus when you submit your logbook you need to have done a PPC in the last 12 month!

Karl

[wallypilot]

Do you know that you can change you 16h Pic x/C for 32h F/O x/C?
Karl

Night PIC 25 hours is a requirement of the ATPL and cannot be substituted with Co-Pilot time. for the rest of the 75 night hours, yes, FO time is fine.

as for writing the ATPL's, why not just wait until your IATRA expires, then write the exams? The ATPL's take the place of the IATRA if you don't have the hour requirements for the ATPL.

Personally, I don't think having the ATPL exams written makes that big a difference. But then, I have never been interested in flying airlines, so take that FWIW.

[HORUNNER]

The Iatra expires ???

[DHC-1 Jockey]

The Iatra expires ???

Yes, the IATRA is valid for 24 months, in which time you have to apply for the type rating. If you do not apply for the type rating before the 24 months is up, you have to write again. If you get a type rating BEFORE the 24 months is up, the IATRA is valid forever I believe. From the CARS:

421.40 (3)(a)(i)

Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane or Commercial Pilot Licence-Aeroplane
(A) in the case of the holder of a Private Pilot Licence-Aeroplane or Commercial Pilot Licence-Aeroplane, within the 24 months preceding the application for the first endorsement of the two crew rating, an applicant shall have obtained a minimum score of 70 percent (70%) on the Type Rating-Aeroplane (IATRA) written examination;

[mattedfred]

if you are likely to get upgraded at the Tier III carrier once you have the hours and before the ATPL exams expire then write the exams now

if this isn't likely then i don't think the carrier would care as long as you can legally fly as an FO on their aircraft

[Cap'n P8]

I think the ATP exams will remain valid for good if you complete a type rating and PPC on a >12500 a/c, in the same manner the IATRA does.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I think the ATP exams will remain valid for good if you complete a type rating and PPC on a >12500 a/c, in the same manner the IATRA does.

Do you have a reference to this somewhere? I've never heard of this particular exemption.. just the one about the IATRA being valid forever once doing a PPC.

[BTD]

Having the exams written could only help. Never hurt you. Keep in mind that if you go to this Tier III do you need an ATPL to be PIC on their aircraft? If so then you will never reach the requirements for the ATPL unless you go and rent an aircraft to finish it off.

You cannot trade off the PIC NIGHT XC time for additional co-pilot time.

I don't think that the ATPL exams stay valid longer than 2 years if you have the Type Rating. I'm pretty sure you can only use them therafter for additional type ratings, but if you apply for the licence after the 2 years is up, you will have to rewrite the exams to receive the licence.

Just looking to see if I can find the reference.

BTD

[Edo]

I think the ATP exams will remain valid for good if you complete a type rating and PPC on a >12500 a/c, in the same manner the IATRA does.

Do you have a reference to this somewhere? I've never heard of this particular exemption.. just the one about the IATRA being valid forever once doing a PPC.

12,500 does not matter.

Time Limits

400.03(1) Subject to subsection (3), tests, skill letters and examinations, including all sections of a sectionalized examination, that are required for the issuance of a permit or licence or for the endorsement of a permit or licence with a rating shall be completed during the 24-month period immediately preceding the date of the application for the permit, licence or rating.(amended 2003/06/01; previous version)

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of examinations that are required for the issuance of
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(a) a student pilot permit; or
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) an airline transport pilot licence if examinations were previously written
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(i) for the endorsement of a type rating, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the type rating was issued;
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)



Not sure what (b) means, The ATPL exams will still expire in 2 yrs if you do not get a type rating or ATPL.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

You cannot trade off the PIC NIGHT XC time for additional co-pilot time.

Can't you get the remainder of the PIC Night X/C as PIC under supervision?

421.11 Airline Transport Licence Training (Pilot-in-command Under Supervision)

(3) The training program shall be conducted in accordance with the following:

(b) the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time may be acquired in the co-pilot's seat provided the pilot-in-command functions described in clauses (i) and (ii) can be performed from the seat. Otherwise, the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of ten hours in the pilot-in-command seat. The pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include:

(i) with the exception of taxiing, at least all the flight functions of a pilot-in-command including flight planning, takeoff, landing, en route flying and approach; and
(ii) a minimum of one takeoff and one landing for each ten hours of flight time.

(4) The conditions for crediting an applicant's flight time are as follows:

(a) An applicant for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane shall be given credit for up to 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time under supervision, provided the applicant:
(i) holds a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane with a multi-engine rating and the aeroplane type rating in which the flight time is acquired;
(ii) has a Group I instrument rating; and
(iii) has accumulated a minimum of 150 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes.

(5) An applicant shall be credited flight time as follows:

(a) not more than 50% of the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time for a total of up to 100 hours in the case of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane and up to 150 hours in the case of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Helicopter may be credited toward pilot-in-command experience requirements; and

(b) Pilot-in-command under supervision flight time, provided such flight time is acquired within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence for which the flight time is to be credited.

[Cap'n P8]

I think the ATP exams will remain valid for good if you complete a type rating and PPC on a >12500 a/c, in the same manner the IATRA does.

Do you have a reference to this somewhere? I've never heard of this particular exemption.. just the one about the IATRA being valid forever once doing a PPC.

12,500 does not matter.

Time Limits

400.03(1) Subject to subsection (3), tests, skill letters and examinations, including all sections of a sectionalized examination, that are required for the issuance of a permit or licence or for the endorsement of a permit or licence with a rating shall be completed during the 24-month period immediately preceding the date of the application for the permit, licence or rating.(amended 2003/06/01; previous version)

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of examinations that are required for the issuance of
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(a) a student pilot permit; or
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(b) an airline transport pilot licence if examinations were previously written
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(i) for the endorsement of a type rating, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the type rating was issued;
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)



Not sure what (b) means, The ATPL exams will still expire in 2 yrs if you do not get a type rating or ATPL.

You've actually answered it with that quote.
(1) 24 months
(2) Except
(b) ATPL exams
(i) for the endorsement of a type rating (which is where the 12500 number comes in, because you don't need to write any exams for a high performance type rating, just the two-crew type ratings on Transport Category a/c)

[BTD]

Well there you go. about the above

You cannot trade off the PIC NIGHT XC time for additional co-pilot time.

Can't you get the remainder of the PIC Night X/C as PIC under supervision?

421.11 Airline Transport Licence Training (Pilot-in-command Under Supervision)

(3) The training program shall be conducted in accordance with the following:

(b) the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time may be acquired in the co-pilot's seat provided the pilot-in-command functions described in clauses (i) and (ii) can be performed from the seat. Otherwise, the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include a minimum of ten hours in the pilot-in-command seat. The pilot-in-command under supervision flight time shall include:

(i) with the exception of taxiing, at least all the flight functions of a pilot-in-command including flight planning, takeoff, landing, en route flying and approach; and
(ii) a minimum of one takeoff and one landing for each ten hours of flight time.

(4) The conditions for crediting an applicant's flight time are as follows:

(a) An applicant for an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane shall be given credit for up to 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time under supervision, provided the applicant:
(i) holds a Commercial Pilot Licence - Aeroplane with a multi-engine rating and the aeroplane type rating in which the flight time is acquired;
(ii) has a Group I instrument rating; and
(iii) has accumulated a minimum of 150 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes.

(5) An applicant shall be credited flight time as follows:

(a) not more than 50% of the pilot-in-command under supervision flight time for a total of up to 100 hours in the case of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane and up to 150 hours in the case of an Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Helicopter may be credited toward pilot-in-command experience requirements; and

(b) Pilot-in-command under supervision flight time, provided such flight time is acquired within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence for which the flight time is to be credited.

Yes that will count. But that is not co-pilot. It is PIC under supervision. Tier III generally have min requirements to go Capt above the ATPL. So if you need the PIC under supervision to get the ATPL and the guy behind you already has it, I can guess who the company will upgrade first.

[props ahead]

I wrote my IATRA at the end of flight school and did a year on the ramp and then got on as a co-pilot on a twin otter. When I received my new license i didnt see anything new on it to indicate that my IATRA has become valid. Does anybody know if there should be a change on my license?

[BTD]

There will be no change to your license. All the Iatra does is allow you to get a type rating. When you do, that will show up on your licence. Just keep your copy of the exam results to prove completion of the exam.

BTD

[airbournesailor]

Pretty sure your IATRA will expire if you stay on the twotter. You have to do a type rating on an ac that requires 2 crew within 24 months which will validate it for another 24 months etc... Not 100% sure, but that is how I understand it. I wrote the IATRA the second time because mine expired.

[airbournesailor]

From the CARs

(3) Individual Type Rating Requirements

(a) Aeroplane - Two Crew

(i) Knowledge

An applicant for an individual aircraft type rating for aeroplanes with a minimum flight crew requirement of at least two pilots shall have completed a program of ground school instruction and flight training on the aeroplane type, and
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane or Commercial Pilot Licence-Aeroplane

(A) in the case of the holder of a Private Pilot Licence-Aeroplane or Commercial Pilot Licence-Aeroplane, within the 24 months preceding the application for the first endorsement of the two crew rating, an applicant shall have obtained a minimum score of 70 percent (70%) on the Type Rating-Aeroplane (IATRA) written examination

A twotter is designated as a one crew ac even though most company ops require 2 crew, therefore an IATRA is not required. If it is not required inthe type rating, I am pretty sure it will expire! There is a list somewhere on TC website of every ac designation code and crew requirement.

[props ahead]

I wasn't sure if the twin otter PPC counted since the company required it to be operated 2 crew....but makes sense. Ill have to write it again then..thanks for the help!

[AUGER9]

There is a list somewhere on TC website of every ac designation code and crew requirement.

Anyone know where this is?

Also, what requirements, if any, are there for an aircraft to be required two-crew, as per TC standards?

Thx!

[lilfssister]

There is a list somewhere on TC website of every ac designation code and crew requirement.

Anyone know where this is?

Also, what requirements, if any, are there for an aircraft to be required two-crew, as per TC standards?

Thx!

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... t42102.htm

[airbournesailor]

Thanks lilfssister , knew it was there somewhere but couldn't find it for the the life of me!!

[Northern Snow Goose]

Just looking through some old topics and this one affects me.
Question:
I have a Type Rating on an Aircraft >12,500 and i had to write the IATRA to get PPC'd on the Aircraft.
I have been flying this A/C for over a year and i know the IATRA is locked in so i can continue flying this Aircraft, But I'm am thinking about writing the ATPL exams. Do these exams also lock in seeing how i have a Multi Crew Type Rating and presently flying. Just in case in 2 years i don't complete the required pic time and have not submitted my application for the ATPL.
Or does the ATPL exams expire regardless of holding a type rating or not.??
Thanks all
N.S.G

[Slappy the Squirrel]

ATPL writtens will stay valid as long as you keep that type rating, even past the two years.

[BTD]

ATPL writtens will stay valid as long as you keep that type rating, even past the two years.

Only to use the atpl exams for type ratings. To apply for the license, the exams must have been written within the previous 24 months.

[Slappy the Squirrel]

Only to use the atpl exams for type ratings. To apply for the license, the exams must have been written within the previous 24 months.

Are you sure? It is a confusing topic and I am by no means an expert on it, but I was told that even to upgrade they are valid indefinately if you got a type rating.
In the link below to the CARS it even specifies that the 24 month period for written exams yadda yadda doesn't apply for the issuance of an ATPL, as long as you obtained a type rating endorsement.

But on topic of the original post, I don't see why an employer would favor ATPL writtens vs. an IATRA.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#400_03