what would ya use?..

[oldncold]

say you needed low cost pison twin both for maintence and direct costs/ for very short hops than 100stat miles and ya can't use a single piston due to night 703 req. and a pa31 is too much a/c most of the time. what would you use

icing eq is a factor as is alt.

[ilovelamp]

A BN2A-26 Islander

[ZBBYLW]

How about a Beech Baron?

[Donald]

I'd still use the PA31, you can never have "too much airplane". Especially if you say icing and altitude are factors.

[flyinthebug]

I agree with Donald. However a C310 may be an alternative. They are fast, and provide some icing equipment..your still limited by alt though.. If you dont need a big load and your night IFR,. you may wanna consider a C414 or C421. Their engines are ok but prone to cylinder changes..you can hang out at 18,000 all day and that gets you above most winter weather around these parts. We used to use them as air ambulance in MB back in the 90s..They worked well.

Good luck in your search.

Fly safe all.

[wrenches and radios]

I always like a C-337. Easy on fuel and most like a single with the twin reliability.

[Doc]

So far, replies are from folks not using their own money.

Trips of 100 miles, means speed is not an issue.

Travel Air. For what you want, it's the biggest bang for your buck. The extra twenty knots a 310 will net you is what in a 100 mile trip? Three minutes?

Companies use the Travel Air for scheduled bag runs. They are great little airplanes that handle really well.

You might even consider a Cessna 337. Simple, cheap....and again simple to work with for 100 mile trips.

[black hole]

Aztec!!!!!!!

[Conquest Driver]

How many people/pounds of stuff do you need to carry?

[oldncold]

enough for 1-to 4 pax and 2-300 pnds of cargo /was thinking of a seneca 11 with deice as it has easy access.
good on fuel and parts are readly available.

your thoughts?

[flyinthebug]

Doc, he never specified REAL money

oldncold, my past boss would have loved ya! His favorite aircraft ever was a Seneca II. I never really understood, but he loved em. If you dont need to be over 10,000 ft for more then a 1/2 hour or so, the II is quite cost effective.

Who said Aztec? lol! They are cheap, ill give you that!

Fly safe all.

[Conquest Driver]

icing eq is a factor as is alt.

With that as a factor, I really wonder if you're going to do any better than the Navahog.

The Aztec may be cheaper to buy, but maintainance will eat you. Plus it's going to be cheaper to sell In my opinion, the Aztec has some problems with the Passenger door. Plus there's the whole issue of having everyone climb up on the wing.

An Islander is a good machine but I don't think you can run it in ice.

With 4 pax and 300 pounds the Seneca II ain't gonna make it, specially if you need an alternate. Lighten things up a bit and it does become an alternative. It's a fairly decent aircraft.

There''s got to be some good Navajo deals out there these days. Best wishes.

[Airtids]

If your leg is only 100 miles, the Seneca II could do it, but as Conquest driver wrote, your alternate better be close. Weird ZFW issues as well as a max landing weight.

C337 is a great machine, but not approved for ice.

Straight Ho.

[who me ?]

I flew a Seneca II for a number of years in the late 80's probably 800hrs worth.
We actually operated 2 machines. They were very good to us, no real issues
that hurt us. Maintenance was pretty good , the tubo-chargers demanded some operating care.I believe our machines were certified know icing.

I think 4 pass + 1 pilot and 2-300 lbs of freight, even 100 miles might be a bit tight.

If you want more info, pm me and I can get out my old books.

Cheers !

[Driving Rain]

How about an Aero Commander 500 or Shrike Commander.
Easy to load nice and stable and easy to fly.

[swordfish]

PA23 Aztec. One of the best, most forgiving, toughest twins made. Normally aspirated though, so they don't go very high. But for a 100-mile trip, do you need that capability?

They are easy to fly, and junior pilots can fly them & learn. If you "accidentally" overload them they fly just exactly like undergross. It's almost impossible to get the c-of-g too far aft (unless you really work at it, of course.... ) They handle shitloads of ice without falling out of the sky, and many have boots all around. With long-range tanks, they fly for 6 hours (from memory). The Lycoming is very dependable. You don't have the hot-starting problems with them like a Navajo - using a standard technique, they always start. The gear is strong, and they land virtually anywhere. The brakes don't freeze up. Visibility is excellent; you forget you're not in a Beech product... Sometimes loading through the passenger door is a pain for freight ops, but you can load lots (carefully) from the rear baggage door.

They are "inexpensive" in relation to other twins.

However, there is a drawback: the hydraulic packs (gear & flap control) are becoming scarce, and I don't think they are being manufactured - even by third-party jobbers - and if that goes kaput, the plane is grounded till you can find another from another Aztec.

[Strega]

Aztec!!!!!!!

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner!

one of the best planes ever built!

[swordfish]

Good God. Don't tell me strega and I agree on something...

[mag check]

PA23 Aztec. One of the best, most forgiving, toughest twins made. Normally aspirated though, so they don't go very high. But for a 100-mile trip, do you need that capability?

They are easy to fly, and junior pilots can fly them & learn. If you "accidentally" overload them they fly just exactly like undergross. It's almost impossible to get the c-of-g too far aft (unless you really work at it, of course.... ) They handle shitloads of ice without falling out of the sky, and many have boots all around. With long-range tanks, they fly for 6 hours (from memory). The Lycoming is very dependable. You don't have the hot-starting problems with them like a Navajo - using a standard technique, they always start. The gear is strong, and they land virtually anywhere. The brakes don't freeze up. Visibility is excellent; you forget you're not in a Beech product... Sometimes loading through the passenger door is a pain for freight ops, but you can load lots (carefully) from the rear baggage door.

They are "inexpensive" in relation to other twins.

However, there is a drawback: the hydraulic packs (gear & flap control) are becoming scarce, and I don't think they are being manufactured - even by third-party jobbers - and if that goes kaput, the plane is grounded till you can find another from another Aztec.

The Aztec is available as a turbo as well, just make sure you get a factory turbo model if you need it, the converted ones are not as good.

There is a pilot door STC, which allows you to get in after loading your cargo, or passengers.
It works very well, and looks good too.

There is also a quick release cowl stc, which eliminates most of the maintenance nightmares of the pa23, as it is normally a major hassle to remove the cowls.

The power packs are easily overhauled, there are many shops that are certified to do so, and once done, they will last for a very long time, which is good, cause it sucks changing them

They are possibly the best light twin available.

[Cat Driver]

The Aztec is built like a dump truck and as close to idiot proof to fly as you can get.

And it's performance for the dollar can't be beat.

[flyinthebug]

I like the Aztec as well and did my initial Multi/IFR in one. I loved flying it too but I also know Bearskin sold their PA23`s even before they updated their PA31 fleet to turbine. I asked one of the top guys at Bearskin why they wernt keeping their PA23s for fire patrol? The manager/pilot guy suggested that they were costing them too much for maintenance and I seem to remember them having very sensative engines that blew jugs on a fairly regular basis. Maybe it was due to the newer guys flying them on fire patrol and not stage cooling..but seems to me I always remember them sitting in the hanger with cowlings wide open. The TCCA inspector that did my ride in the PA23-250, passed me then told me to fly the aircraft back to YQT and park it and NEVER get in one again. He was completely serious when he said that.

They are cheap though! and as stated above, very very forgiving and easy to fly. If you get the -T version, you could do 10,000 all day long.

Fly safe all.

[Ogee]

Aztec is good. Skymaster won't carry your load.

They are good in ice, that big fat wing just keeps flying. The passenger side door needs something called a Lister latch, which is basically an outdoor biffy sliding lock bolt. I had the door come open on one at rotation at Pan Phillips ranch many years ago and it was a handful and more. It goes right out to the cowling and robs major air off the elevator on that side.

If you go that way, make sure you get one with two hydraulic pumps. Many came with only one, and if that was the one that calved on takeoff, you'd be working that frigging hand pump like a madman as you hit the ground.

Unless you want to go with geared engines, Commanders are going to be expensive, especially the Shrike. They are nice to fly though.

[swordfish]

ogee cautioned:

get one with two hydraulic pumps. Many came with only one, and if that was the one that calved on takeoff, you'd be working that frigging hand pump like a madman as you hit the ground.

Excellent suggestion. The ones I flew had only 1 pump.

Mag check, I didn't know the packs could be overhauled! Another excellent tip, because that's what seemed to ground ours most. Apart from that, they were a very dependable and reliable aircraft. As you can see. it's quite a while since I flew them; I don't remember the turbo conversion being available at the time.

[mag check]

ogee cautioned:

get one with two hydraulic pumps. Many came with only one, and if that was the one that calved on takeoff, you'd be working that frigging hand pump like a madman as you hit the ground.

Excellent suggestion. The ones I flew had only 1 pump.

Mag check, I didn't know the packs could be overhauled! Another excellent tip, because that's what seemed to ground ours most. Apart from that, they were a very dependable and reliable aircraft. As you can see. it's quite a while since I flew them; I don't remember the turbo conversion being available at the time.

Yah, the overhaul costs about $600. There is no real wear parts in it, just seals, and then the pressure set up.

There is also an emergency electric hydraulic pump stc available, and it works well.

There were factory turbo models from about 1966 and on. They were factory lycoming installations, the mod ones were rajay conversions, and have some "issues"

Awesome performing aircraft though, will beat pretty much anything over a 50' obstacle.
I'm going by memory, but I think it's 800' at gross, to get over 50', and that's carrying a 2000lb load.

[glorified bus driver]

[quote="Airtids"]If your leg is only 100 miles, the Seneca II could do it, but as Conquest driver wrote, your alternate better be close. Weird ZFW issues as well as a max landing weight.
C337 is a great machine, but not approved for ice.

Actually the C-337, equipped properly, pressurized, turbocharged with the ice boots would be a perfect plane. Seen a nice one for sale just the other day!

[quote="Ogee"]Aztec is good. Skymaster won't carry your load.

Not sure where Ogee is coming from here. I fly a C-337 and have done 100 mile trips with 300 pounds of baggage legally. Empty weight 2921lbs. 1 pilot+ 4 people= 1000 lbs. baggage 300 lbs. Gross weight is 4630 lbs. That leaves 409 lbs of fuel. Fuel burn is 120 lbs an hour. This leaves you over three hours of fuel. Should be able to meet the requirements with that. The C-337 is a very nice airplane to fly aswell!