Does the coolaid really taste as sweet as it sounds?

[aerogeek]

Hey Gang,

Just got a unique opportunity to get my resume in the door at WJ. Presently I am a FO at Jazz, all the while having a dream of working for the the Big Green. No interest in working for the Big Red. They treat their kids like a big bag of smashed bung holes. Corporate culture and lifestyle is what I am after ... not the size of my iron (if you're picking up what I'm putting down).

Here is the conundrum: Current state of the economy. I have a year + vested in Jazz, which for the record is a pretty good gig. Great benefits, pension, outstanding travel benefits ($hi+ pay)... but pairings include having to play mind games with the captain to try to get them to say something positive about the company. With the upcoming negotiatons, this little game is becoming a little more challenging. And repetitive. and boring. Same poop, different pile.

Jazz Pros:
Good long term benefits (ie pension, medical and travel benefits
Easy job. longest flight is 2 hrs.
Great lifestyle. Only work 16 days per month
Home base near family. I'm a single guy with a tight family. Don't wanna move. Hear the 'Port' system isn't that great for new FO's

Jazz Cons:
Associated with AC, so anytime I say I work for AC JAZZ, I have to field complaints from friends and aquaintances about their trip to rome and why they had to pay for a second bag or why they were cancelled and left for dead in timmins due to a broken flux capacitor
With the upcoming negotiations, I feel a real sense of nervousness about job security. Currently residing around the 75-100 mark of seniority, I feel the company is going to threaten layoffs anytime as a negotiaton tactic. Maybe it's just me. for the record, I have not heard such rumours ... just a hunch.
Pretty negative work environment. At the end of the day, the most important thing is to be happy. I am generally happy going kind of guy but after a 4 day pairing with a grumpy old f@*#, I want to just pick up and leave. Not all pairings, are like this. I do work with some really cool dudes (and dudettes). But when I leave the airport, and how I feel about the pairing, I think about it, the amount of times I was happy and the times I wanted to see blood ... the latter far outweighed the former. I am a strait shooter. I call 'em as I see 'em. When the captain is being a dick, I'll tell him/her. I expect that in return. I have told and I have been told. I appreciate honesty more than anything in this world.
10+ years to upgrade. I don't mind putting my time in, but c'mon. really? 10 yrs? I've talked to some that were an FO for longer. Zut Alore!

Westjet Pros:
Positive corporate culture. I have only met one out of about ~50 people that work there that actually have a justifiable complaint.
Better pay. By year 4 I will be almost making almost a 1st yr Jazz Captain salary. I hate to bring money into this, but at the end of the day, I put my time in teetering on bankruptcy to get my career going in this industry. I expect a little more than a salary that "scrapes by", at best. Besides, there is only so many ways one can 'spice up' KD

WJ Cons:
Calgary. Although I lived there for a while, fantastic people, and great friends ... still not home. All my family is in YYZ
No Pension. Only shares. Although this can be a good thing... in a good market, unfortunately I am not educated enough in the details to give a good reason. Although I understand a very little about stocks and bonds, I do know that the stocks have to come from somewhere to be given to us new hires. Someone is making a shit load of cash off us. If I am wrong on this one, someone please educate me. Not only that, but I have heard of some WJ pilots trying to sell off their shares as advised by a financial advisor ... then being called into the mgmt office for a little pow wow. Heard one dude had his upgrade threatened. Hearsay, but once again, I am inviting anyone to clear this up with factual information.
Does not have the global network: I became a pilot (amongst many other reasons) to be given the opportunity to travel...for cheapie cheapie. WJ reach doesn't go very far internationally.

The lists could go on, but if you've read this far I think you get the picture. Thanks for reading this far, by the way. I am always open to opinions and critiques. If I am wrong with any of the WJ points, please correct me if you have factual information.

The bottom line is: should I leave Jazz for Westjet?

[Duster]

1) Under the agreement you are guaranteed to work no more than 15 days on a 30 day month, 16 days on a 31 day month
2) You can live in YYZ and sign up for the YYZ port or commute to YYC or bid pairings starting and/or ending in YYZ.
3) Health/dental benefits are average - they are working to improve them
4) Job Security - get in before the flood hits
5) Pension - no such thing as a guaranteeed pension these days - if you buy in to the share purchase program the company contributes up to 20% of your income (matching your contribution) so in essence you are putting by 40% of your income annually. After that you can sell,invest,or blow the cash on women and whiskey. Talk to your accountant.
6)Global Network - not yet...but agreements coming with other global carriers.
7) No seniority on schedule bidding - this is huge for new guys - you have as good a chance of Christmas or other holidays as anybody -talk to some of the other Jazz guys and see how they like their schedule.
Easy job - we are blocked to 8- hours a month and fly about 75 on the clock -some days are easy-some long and tiring.
9) Great people to work with = we help each other,look after our guests,work hard,make good money, and run the second most profitable airline in North America

Hope this helps with the decision

[Ryan Coke2]

I'll add;

-new agreement coming down the pipe in the next couple of weeks, things will only be getting better.
-Job security far better at a growing profitable company than....the alternative.
-Unless Jazz captains have got big raises lately, you will probably be making more than Jazz Captains in year 3. Not that it is all about the money but, well, it is the reason I work.

I'll be honest, knowing what I know now (ex jazzer as well), it is a total no-brainer. Only real question is the commuting thing. Lot's of others are doing it, it isn't ideal, and the port continues to evolve and improve. But at the end of the day you are likely to be commuting a fair bit for the next while. I'll let some other commuters give you their take on that end, but as I said, that is the only real issue in my opinion.

My only regret is I didn't come over sooner.

[McDoo the Irish Navigator]

Everyone sells their shares all the time. You may sell non-registered (non rsp) shares 4 times per year and rsp shares 4 times per year. If the price is decent, you should. What you spend it on is up to you. The best advice I've gotten is to pay off your house, this is aviation after all.
No one, I repeat, No one has ever been called in and threatened with a stalled upgrade over something like this. (or any other matter except one's ability to fly and lead)
Clive himself will tell you to sell and re-invest elsewhere. I overhead one of the founders telling a Captain to sell some shares and replace his old clunker.
Your money is your money.

[countryhick]

Out of curiosity, what is the starting (take home) wage. Is profit share included in that number?

[bandaid]

I'm no genius but I do believe that profit sharing depends on how much profit they make. Pretty hard to include that in a monthly salary.

[Jastapilot]

"Not only that, but I have heard of some WJ pilots trying to sell off their shares as advised by a financial advisor ... then being called into the mgmt office for a little pow wow. Heard one dude had his upgrade threatened. Hearsay, but once again, I am inviting anyone to clear this up with factual information."

Complete and utter BS. I've been selling shares every quarter for the last 5 years and never got a phone call. They're your shares, for you to decide what to do with them. Me, I diversify them out of the airline sector every chance I get. I did hear once of a story of a day one'er who sold so much stock at once that he did affect the stock price, maybe that's where the story came from.

My only advice is if you are targeting WJ down the road to work, and you have the credentials now... get your butt in here!

[WJ700]

What Duster said... except the benefits are below average.

[countryhick]

Yes it would be hard to include an unknown profit share amount, but I have heard several different numbers floated around. Just looking for a comparison, but if the numbers floating around include the profit share amount, then it is not an accurate comparison. Thats all, not rocket science.

[yycflyguy]

I'm no genious....

Please tell me that was done on purpose.

[bandaid]

Funny how long it took for someone to notice

[NorthSky]

hehe how is it spelt?

[bandaid]

It's right now I am going to blame it on a typo.

[skyhigh]

To be more specific, a year 3 FO at WJ will make more than a Year 7 Captain at Jazz. All this on base pay. NO Profit share, NO Stock Options and NO Employee Share Purchase Plan calculated in those numbers. If you only add the sure money in the Employee Share Purchase plan then a year 3 FO would be making the same as a Year 14 Captain at Jazz and once again NO Profit Share and NO Stock Options calculated in those numbers.

[CAL]

so based on what I see even though we all want to say 'its not all about the money'..it is.
Pay at Jazz and even first 2 years or so at AC are brutal...I just dont know why these companies think its ok to have your new guys struggling to get by at home and dont think it will impact on them at work. If the unions dont ask for it to change the company is never going to offer it.
I dont even know why WJ puts out job adds...do they hire anyone else but Jazz FO's?

[yycflyguy]

I'm no genious....

Please tell me that was done on purpose.

Reminds me of Homer Simpson. "I'm so smart, S-M-R-T, smart."

[. .]

I dont even know why WJ puts out job adds...do they hire anyone else but Jazz FO's?

They hire CMA and Georgian Captains too.

[Ryan Coke2]

Actually the percentage of Jazz hires is surprisingly low--I can't remember the exact number, but it is well below 50%.

Those places mentioned have good experoence for us, but we hire from lots of places. Trust me.

[MS737]

With our ESP plan you can transfer available shares 4 times per year.
These may be RRSP sheltered or straight stock. You may sell shares
As often as you want. Cheers

[Jastapilot]

more specifically, you can choose any ratio within your ESP to be either RRSP shares or regular shares. If you do a combination of both, you can transfer each type 4 times/year. 4 times for regular shares, and an additional 4 times for RRSPs.

[mattedfred]

To be more specific, a year 3 FO at WJ will make more than a Year 7 Captain at Jazz. All this on base pay. NO Profit share, NO Stock Options and NO Employee Share Purchase Plan calculated in those numbers. If you only add the sure money in the Employee Share Purchase plan then a year 3 FO would be making the same as a Year 14 Captain at Jazz and once again NO Profit Share and NO Stock Options calculated in those numbers.

a 7th year ACJ captain makes $84.96 per hour and that is from park brake released to park brake set. how much would the 3rd year WJ FO make for this hour?

i'm just trying to compare apples to apples because without comparing both agreements directly it is hard to get a true picture

[McDoo the Irish Navigator]

$82.12. This does not include ESP, profit share of stock options.

[mattedfred]

thanks for the clarification. neither does the ACJ rate by the way. so a 3rd year WJ 737 FO makes the same as a 6th year ACJ CA on any type. comparing net annual total compensation is a way different ball game i presume.

[. .]

thanks for the clarification. neither does the ACJ rate by the way. so a 3rd year WJ 737 FO makes the same as a 6th year ACJ CA on any type. comparing net annual total compensation is a way different ball game i presume.

The WJ guys don't get paid from park brake release, to park break set. I believe they use different criteria, so on IROPS days when you're waiting for 45 min to get into the bay, then a 30min wait for t/o it would add up. This may become even more serious with the new low vis stuff coming up. 1 in 1 out BS will gridlock airports.

[Rem]

I'm not sure what the exact criteria is, whether it's 5 kts or 72% N2 (which is what it takes to get moving) but basically when you're moving under your own power you're getting paid. The difference amounts to less than 5 minutes. Endless I think what you're referring to used to be true but has since been fixed.

As for the original question, here's my take: there are some commuting issues that could be better, but yes, the Koolaid tastes goooood... I loved my time at Jazz, but there's no comparison. Seriously.