For all of you who do not understand......

[Chuck Ellsworth]

......why I am so against paying for a check out in any aircraft when I am applying for a new job.

Here is why.

I have never ever paid one cent for training, I never ever had to sign a bond.

Here are the ratings my employers paid for ...

Multi Engine rating.

Multi Engine IFR.

Commercial Helicopter License.

And every check out I ever had when flying for any company.

So it is incomprehensible to me to think of pilots actually paying cash to check out in some company's airplane they are going to be flying.

[scopiton]

...........and I would add that paying for a rating is trully recognizing that you don't have anything valuable to offer to any company
However
An exception could be made concerning 40 + year old pillote desiring to go a bit faster in their career because the clock is runnnig twice fast for them if they want to end-up in a descent position @ 50 instead of being on the dock or on the ramp loading bags in an aircraft they would fly @ 59.

[AstroNOT]

An exception could be made concerning 40 + year old pillote desiring to go a bit faster in their career because the clock is runnnig twice fast for them if they want to end-up in a descent position @ 50 instead of being on the dock or on the ramp loading bags in an aircraft they would fly @ 59.

I disagree..... how about a 39yr old? They're ALMOST 40. And a 38yr old almost 39?.......36?....26?....22? where do you draw the line? Why bother creating a "grey area" where there shouldn't be any discussion.

Nobody should be paying for their type training....period.

[Flybabe]

A "decent position" means different things to different people. Not everyone has the airlines in mind..

[SkyWolfe]

I wish someone would buy all that for me!!!! Lucky SOB.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I wish someone would buy all that for me!!!! Lucky SOB.

Yes, I was lucky to have flown in an era when things were far more simple and people had more respect for others.

Looking back I can't even identify when it started to change, I guess it was so gradual it just slowly got us to where we are now.

But look at the bright side of this for you Wolfie, you are young and hopefully have another 49 years ahead of you to get to my age.....but by then maybe pilots will be as useful as the horse and buggy is now.

[MG_]

.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

MG_ you seem to have some serious issues with your failure to find a job where you don't have to pay for it or sign your life away.

Having been in the position of hiring pilots for decades I would love to interview you, and do a background check on what you might be worth as a pilot.

MG_ here is the bottom line, an employer will only pay for your upgrades and or new ratings if they feel the money they spend will not be wasted.

Rather than waste your time trying to trash me why don't you do the same as I did to advance your career?

[MG_]

.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I wonder what your employer would think of their high-value asset wasting his time picking a fight with some low-life "who is [just] looking for a job flying a small single engine airplane"?

Back to work .! Look busy, the boss is coming!

I don't need to worry about having to account for my time MG_ seeing as I am self employed.

[Flaps 1 Billion]

. I think the frustrations of the constant talk about bonds and what not are what gets you the negative comments.

First off, Ornge is not bonding, done.

Second, bonds are bullshit, they are a knife in many pilot's backs in this country, throughout Europe, dunno what it's like in the States. Yet how do you decide between the lesser of two evils this day n' age, the second evil being the street. I'm at my 4th company now and will admit, though makes me sick, that I am bonded. The thought of doing so pisses me off. When I was laid off sometime ago, off I went searching for a new job. Out of the 3 companies I got a response from, all 3 were bonding, all reputable companies to boot. On top of that the likes of Canjet, Porter, Sunwing, etc are also bonding. Now we're between a rock and a hard place. The companies that are hiring are bonding: Canjet, Porter, Calmair, Wasaya, Voyageur (not who I work for), well you catch my drift. Of course there are others that are hiring but not bonding, Jazz and WJ, but not all of us can get into WJ and Jazz is another debate itself, not the saying it's a bad company, I'm talking slow economy type discussions.

So, what am I getting after all of this blabber? Do you take poggy or do you take the chance at getting bonded? This is a tough one. For everyone out there, each of us has our opinions on the matter dependant on our current situation. Does a guy with a couple kids at home and one of the way turn down a Capt seat at Canjet 'cos of the bond? Or does he go on poggy while he waits for the industry to turn. He's had not a peep from anyone in the past few months. How does he continue to pay the bills?

I'm certainly not making the argument for companies to bond people. I don't think it's right. My argument is more along the lines of why people enter into such agreements. The world is a lot different from how it used to be. People have become greedy, trust has become next to extinct in matters of money and training. I have worked for several excellent companies who don't bond and treat their employees well and I didn't leave them hanging for anything. However, I think I've been lucky and have worked to get into these companies, but some companies go through hard times and luck runs dry. It is at that point, when we're at our lowest, that we can be taken advantage of. It is at that point when we're looking at the bills and wondering what the options are that company's hear the pressure in our voices that take advantage. This is when the age old question rolls around. Do I take a bond and perhaps contribute to the continuation of the decline of our industry or do I take a bond and continue on with taking care of my family and myself...

[Skyhunter]

Well, one of the biggest trainers of its own pilots has bonded for years. Join the military as a pilot, you have to agree to do 7 years after Wings. (used to be 5 when I joined). As far as I know, if you get your Wings there is no way out of it. They train you, they want their money's worth out of you. Can't say as I blame them, but on the other hand they are doing the equivilant of paying for all your training from 0 hours, right through ATPL.

Would I sign a bond to go to a company, I am not sure, it would depend if I needed to feed the family and whether the job seemed worth it to stay as long as the bond was for. Would I pay out of my own pocket, no way!.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

So, what am I getting after all of this blabber? Do you take poggy or do you take the chance at getting bonded? This is a tough one. For everyone out there, each of us has our opinions on the matter dependant on our current situation.

Flaps1b...

I totally understand the frustration pilots face with the bond issue and unfortunately it is here to stay, we can lay most of the blame on pilots who took advantage of employers who paid for their training and then left as soon as they found a so called better job.

My personal feelings is if a company requires a bond as a term of employment and said bond protects both parties then of course you should sign it rather than be unemployed.

As to paying cash up front to get a job that is stupid period and opens the door wider for companies who will take advantage of you.

I only reply to posters like MG_ because it is interesting to see just how far they will go with their arguments......

[Brown Bear]

Would I sign a bond to go to a company, I am not sure, it would depend if I needed to feed the family and whether the job seemed worth it to stay as long as the bond was for. Would I pay out of my own pocket, no way!.

Now this is an intelligent reply. MG_ did you get this?

[kevinsky18]

.,

I both agree and disagree with your statements.

I agree no pilot should have to be posting a bond or paying for PPC or type rating as a condition of employment.

However, where we diverge is where ideology meets reality.

The reality is that you’re an exception. No employer in this day and age is going to pay for an employee’s commercial pilot licence, multi-IFR, float rating etc.

Type ratings and PPCs were being paid for by employers for a short while these past few years but that was when things were booming and with the down turn we are going to see a slide back to employers again being able to demand new employees to pay up.

I will say that in 15 years I haven’t paid for a PPC or type rating but that was a matter of finances. I just didn’t have the money and today where I am in my career partly reflects that I wasn’t able to afford to buy those stepping stones. In other words I’m way behind those that could afford to buy their way up.

But I’m not going to stand here and tell new pilots not to do this because that’s a waste of time and it ignores the reality of our times.

The reality of our times is that from day one pilots are buying their careers. There isn’t a single pilot here that had to do anything but show up at a flight school and drop a wad of cash to get his commercial licence and other ratings. No one asked to see their transcripts from school or asked for a sponsorship letter from a potential employer. The only thing they asked for was their credit card. So how can we (the aviation community), after flooding the market with all these guys and gals that bought their licence, turn around and tell them that they should stop buying?

Even if you could convince 95% of commercial pilots to not pay for type ratings etc it still wouldn’t work because all you need is a small handful to set the bar lower for the rest.

**However, I do know of a way to actually turn this situation around. A way that will work if it was ever implemented. It would greatly benefit all commercial pilots from this day forward. It dirt easy and I saw it clearly fifteen years ago when I was a fresh commercial pilot and I still believe it to this day. That is to elevate our status to just slightly above that of a plumber. Now before you think I’m kidding around I’m very serious so continue on reading.

Now in the eyes of the public we certainly are above the status of plumbers but amongst our selves and our employers we are not which is irrelevant because we’ve already established that we as a group of pilots can’t affect the change we need if there are even a few pilots willing to pay for type ratings ect.

So how do we go about raising our status? Well first let’s convince some of the non-believers that our status is currently set below that of a plumber.

For anyone who doubts me go to your local trades school, BCIT, SAIT, NAIT or what ever you guys out east have and go in with a big wad of cash and plunk it down on the admissions desk and tell them you want to become a plumber. What will they tell you?

They will say “sorry we can’t take you’re money.” First, you must get an employer to sponsor you, then you must show you meet the “educational standards.” Funny eh, a plumber, who all he wants to do is wade through your backed up toilet in the basement needs to meet “educational standards” but we as pilots can, in theory, command an airliner, from one continent to another and make a precision approach through a storm in the mountains with 300+ passengers on board all with not even a grade 9 education. All we need to do is be able to speak some English, be able to read and write or at least memorize enough to pass a few exams and do some very basic math and we are in. Yes I know most airlines wouldn’t hire someone without high school but that doesn’t change the fact of where our minimum standards are for this profession.

Ok so if I have you convinced that we are below the poop scoopers of this country, then how can we change this? Well it’s as I said before, dirt simple. We need to get the commercial pilots licence recognized as a trade similar to becoming a plumber or electrician or welder.

If instead of just being able to buy a licence we actually had to get an employer to sponsor us, (btw sponsor does not mean pay for your education. It means give you a job as a labour, and after a year or so recommend you to a school and agree to continue employing you after you’re done school in the profession for which you studied) in effect guarantee a job. If this was all done in the same way as other trades; where you worked for a bit, went to school for a bit over a period of 4 years then we would see a tremendous turn around in our industry. No you would have 1 pilot for every job. If an employer didn't have a job opening then no new pilots would be created until there was a genuine up turn in the ecconomy.

Currently it is the case and always has been that we pump out way more commercial pilots than there are actual jobs available. We’ve been spewing this whole BS line, “the airline guys are going to retire and there will be lots of jobs," since the 70s.” I was doing it in the 90s and it’s the biggest scam ever. Yes there are slight booms like we saw these past couple of years but they are far and few between. For every old fart that retires we produce 500 more commercial pilots. It gets worse during recessions when those that can't get jobs turn to flight instruction and pump out even more pilots.

Thus, in order to make ourselves proud, strong and viable we need to petition the government to raise the standards of becoming a pilot to at least that of a plumber.

We can not count on just rallying our collective selves because in a flooded market there will always be desperate pilots willing to buy ratings and or fly for free thus devaluing everyone else.

., again I agree with you in principle but just talking here isn’t going to make a difference. For all of us to benefit, the majority of current commercial pilots must find a way to unite and demand that the government setup some sort of trade / apprenticeship / graduated licence system to prevent the continued flood and dilution of our profession.

What a wonderful world aviation would be if only there was a system that made sure that before a person could apply to start their career as a pilot they actually had to have a potential job waiting for them (Im not talking airline job heck a 172 flying chips and pops would do) and to have met some basic educational standards. Then and only then would our wages go up, our job security would go up, our self respect would go up.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The reality is that you’re an exception. No employer in this day and age is going to pay for an employee’s commercial pilot licence, multi-IFR, float rating etc.

My commercial helicopter license was paid for because I had an aerial applicators license and was running a fix wing ag. company and another company hired me because they needed my license to start their new operation....thus they paid for my helicopter license.

I agree there is a over supply of pilots and that is why some companies can pay peanuts.

Your idea is great, however the chances of it being implemented in Canada is about 1%

As to the formal education part yes it is important to have as much education as one can get.

But having said that I managed to get through the system without high school education and it didn't seem to prevent me from flying different stuff.

[kevinsky18]

Well . if you honestly believe that there is only a 1% chance that we as an aviation community could raise our selves to the status of a plumber then what makes you think your rants mean anything?

Either you have faith that we could do something and make a change or you don't. And from that last statement it sounds like you don't. . .

You're basically arguing against yourself. In one post you're saying hey you people stop doing what you’re doing and change and in the next you're saying we can't change our situation. You sound like my drunk uncle who would argue with you even when you agreed with him.

I'm all up for any suggestions you have. But if your only suggestion is to "just say no to bonds and type ratings" well there's a 0% chance of everyone agreeing to that so why waste your time?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Well . if you honestly believe that there is only a 1% chance that we as an aviation community could raise our selves to the status of a plumber then what makes you think your rants mean anything?

Either you have faith that we could do something and make a change or you don't. And from that last statement it sounds like you don't. .

What I thought you are saying is you want TC to change the whole structure of how one becomes a commercial pilot......that will not happen for the simple reason they like the way it is now and what you think means SFA to them.

You're basically arguing against yourself. In one post you're saying hey you people stop doing what you’re doing and change and in the next you're saying we can't change our situation. You sound like my drunk uncle who would argue with you even when you agreed with him.

If you read what I said a little closer you will see that I don't think the bond issue will change because the horse has been out of the barn to long and companies want to protect their investment in new pilots.

I'm all up for any suggestions you have. But if your only suggestion is to "just say no to bonds and type ratings" well there's a 0% chance of everyone agreeing to that so why waste your time?

How did you ever make the stretch that I am against type ratings?????

Once again let me explain my position.

I think that transferable PPC's is a stupid idea.

I do not think bonds will disappear, so before a pilot signs one the pilot should have an aviation lawyer approve it.

I can't in my wildest dreams imagine anyone paying cash up front to get a type check out to fly for any company.

[looproll]

There are still a few good companies out there that will train you on their aircraft with no bond, no money up front, nothing. That's how I began my career, so it's possible for someone who is a hard worker with good references to also accomplish this. However, there are a lot more pilots looking for a position than there are employers offering bond-free jobs.

[AntiNakedMan]

The reality is that you’re an exception. No employer in this day and age is going to pay for an employee’s commercial pilot licence, multi-IFR, float rating etc.

Actually, after the air cadets got through paying for my PPL in 03, my employer proceeded to pay for my float rating, CPL, and Multi Rating. At the end of it all, I gave them a hug and said "Thanks mom and dad"

[crazy_aviator]

As . mentioned, Companies require bonds because they have been bitten before and cannot afford being a training mill!! ANSWER ? PILOTS have to stop being Whores who USE and abuse companies as a stepping stone for the almighty Airlines! You did it to yourselves folks ! On another note, Why in heck would i spend 15,000 on ANY pilot and see him/ her gone in a year ??? How about the silver spooner son or daughter of the airline captain who is fasttracked into the cushy jobs AND also pays for the ratings, PPC etc ? Why not disallow the airline pilots kid from preferential treatment? What about the recent poster who cant decide whether to go with westjet or stay with Jazz ,, He is completely selfish and doesnt give a damn about the company but only about his own arse !!!! Bonds are here to stay , congratulations to the selfish idiots who spoiled it for everyone else when they abused companies and walked out for the airline job in 6 months !!! The NEW normal is GET whatever you can get !

[crazy_aviator]

Another problem is the immature, selfish pilot who just "loves" to fly soo much ( and tells their boss that too) that he/she really doesnt go to a job but its an endless "vacation" . He/she flies for food and undercuts every other professional pilot and puts hard working husbands and wives with children out of work!!! You "fun fliers" learn to keep your mouth shut and demand the proper wage and conditions that is appropriate regardless of how much you Love flying! You will then be doing all of us a favour and benefitting professional pilots in Canada !

[Chuck Ellsworth]

crazy_aviator most companies will reward a real good employee, when I had my flying school there was one exceptionally good worker, a real self starter who always kept himself busy so much in fact he would wash airplanes and sweep the hangar floor all on his own initiative.

Over a two year period I gave him his multi engine rating / multi engine IFR and his commercial helicopter license in that order.

It was money well spent as far as I was concerned.

He is now a Captain on the 738 flying for West Jet.

By the way the other instructors did not really like him because they saw him as a company pet..the dumb bastards would sit and complain about it while he was outside working.

[kevinsky18]

.,

Here’s a bit more detail of what I’m suggesting. First in my mind I don’t see any changes to the any of the licenses, ratings etc in terms of minimum hours qualifications ect. Everything would basically remain the same.

Except for one basic change, in order to enroll in a commercial pilot program the prospective student must be sponsored by an established aviation company. And like the trades a company can not sponsor more students than they have journeymen / ATPL pilots.

In my dream world, Johnny wannabe pilot goes out and gets his private pilots licence. Air Tindi or some other company hires him with only a private licence and as many other labours as they want. Johnny works the ramp for a year or two to prove himself and save up for school. In the mean time some of Johnny’s coworkers realize that aviation isn’t for them. Having only invested in a private licence they find the decision to leave aviation a sensible move, thus leaving Johnny and a few other die hard wannabe pilots.

This is the first stage of pay raise. You see because wannabes haven’t already paid out $40,000 to get a commercial licence they don’t feel trapped in continuing down a path that they don’t like. This reduces the number of rampies / slaves and thus companies have to actually pay a bit more to keep those that truly are interested.

Next: said company decides that next year they will need a new pilot or two. They write a formal letter of sponsorship for Johnny. It basically says there is a job waiting for Johnny when he finishes school. This is a legal binding piece of paper, so barring justifiable reasons such as recession ect Johnny should have a job when he gets out of school.

Johnny returns with his commercial pilots licence and he goes right seat in a twin or left seat in a single. The great thing is Johnny just finished school so his skills are sharp. He hasn’t spent 2 years on the ramp forgetting everything he learned during his commercial.


Some say this won’t work but it works under every other trade and with much more strict rules than I’ve suggested. Other trades realize that flooding the market only lowers their standards and wages.

All we are asking from transport is to make those slight changes. Require a sponsor and hold the sponsor to his agreement.

So in terms of difficulty. 1) how hard would it be to get a large majority or commercial pilots to sign a petition urging the changes? I don’t think it would be too hard. Off course all current students would be grandfathered in. 2) Is this one change hard to get TC to implement? Well yes they can make it seem like its moving mountains but really it’s a minor change.

The really road blockers will be employers who want cheap labour pilots and flight schools who would see an end to the commercial pilot puppy mills that have been running in this country for decades.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

kevinsky18 please sit real quiet and don't faint dead away.

I like your idea.