FSS to VFR overstaffing offers

[grimey]

But just because you go to a VFR spot doesn't mean you'll get a license!

No, but (not to denigrate the VFR guys in here) the checkout rate at most towers is significantly higher than at several centres.

[Hooj]

I was not aware that people had started the interviews. are you sure they're not EOCO. Last i heard was nothing is being done yet. Also hopefully if you get VFR you don't get Braun as an OJI, he seems to want people to check out real bad.

[Braun]

I was not aware that people had started the interviews. are you sure they're not EOCO. Last i heard was nothing is being done yet. Also hopefully if you get VFR you don't get Braun as an OJI, he seems to want people to check out real bad.

With your kind of attitude no. If you look at a history of my posts you would see that ever since i've been on here it has been to help people who are going through the process of applying, in training or any questions related. I am sorry if you think I am an asshole for simply pointing out the fact that going VFR doesn't guarantee your license. I am an IFR controller fyi.

[yrp]

Also hopefully if you get VFR you don't get Braun as an OJI, he seems to want people to check out real bad.

That's a bit harsh, Hooj. It is only realistic to say that there is no guarantee of a license in any Nav Can training - FSS included. Braun didn't say nothin' about people not deserving to check out.

[floatyghosthat]

No, he's definitely not EOCO, as he doesn't even have one year in with the company yet.

I realize that VFR is a very difficult course, and nothing's guaranteed. I'm hoping with my FSS experience, my IFR training experience, my flying experience and the fact that I've spent countless hours in towers just watching and learning, hopefully that will give me an edge. I still have my bundle of ATC ManOps next to my bed, and although they're outdated, I still read a few every night.

This is a big risk for me and anyone else who accepts this offer, but I'm confident in my abilities and I know that I'll be completely focused and devoted to my goals. If this was completely skill and merit based, I would have no qualms whatsoever about it. I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't think I could do it. If by some chance I just don't cut it under my own merit, I can live with that. It's my own fault and my own responsibility, I have no one to blame but myself. What I'm afraid of are the circumstances that aren't under my control. What if they decide the course isn't working and can it? What if the course doesn't prepare me at all for the tower? What if the testing is completely unbalanced? What if I get CT'd because one of the instructors doesn't like me? What if the instructors aren't prepared for the course?

If the training was still happening at NCTI, I'd take it in a heartbeat, but seeing what training is like at the center firsthand, and hearing from some of the instructors how the current courses are doing, it's a little overwhelming.

I suppose all this stressing and worrying is moot, considering the fact that I haven't heard back yet, and may not be getting an offer at all. But, one can dream, right?

P.S.

I don't think I'd mind having braun as an OJI at all. As long as my OJI judges me on my skill and knowledge, (and not my hockey ability) and doesn't have an utterly abrasive personality, that's all I ask for. Everything else is up to me.

[NJ]

If I get a trainee who was ex-FSS I would do what I do for every trainee: bust my ass and work for them to ensure they receive the best training possible, and that they receive their license.

Luckily for FSS who may transfer to VFR. There is kind of a test course underway. YMM FSS will undergo an abbreviated VFR course with simulation so they can work at YMM Tower. That should iron out many kinks of an abbreviated course. Likely they'd cut out things like weather, reduce the vehicle portion of it (FSS has some better rules for vehicle control, as we learned at our tower).

PS. I only have an utterly abrasive personality if you don't work as hard for yourself as I'm working for you

[dutch]

I recently completed the testing session and received a pass according to the A.C.T. website. I was then contacted for a phone interview but then told that we do not have to do interviews as we are already with the company. I have been an FSS for over 2 years and think that this is a great opportunity to get into a VFR course. I have no idea when or if I will get an offer to start a course or if our union has even agreed to the final details of the HR plan???

[W0XOF]

I have no idea when or if I will get an offer to start a course or if our union has even agreed to the final details of the HR plan???

Yes they have. Final details for x-training: You get an offer and sign to accept it, you lose all return rights.

[lilfssister]

Sooooo...if you are low time and want to do this...why wouldn't you sign up for the 35K$ buyout and apply on your own? Am I missing something here?

[dutch]

I heard that if we take the 35k we have to wait 2 years to re-apply to the company. For me I would rather begin training right away (hopefully) than wait 2 years and have to go through the entire application process.

If what I heard about the 2 year wait is incorrect I would definitely consider taking the 35k and applying on my own. Has anyone else heard this or I am way out in left field on this subject?

[SpeedRacer]

my understanding is that during cross training you would still be paid. Depending on how long training is, this might work out to more than the 35K buyout.

[lilfssister]

I heard that if we take the 35k we have to wait 2 years to re-apply to the company. For me I would rather begin training right away (hopefully) than wait 2 years and have to go through the entire application process.

Thanks. Should have seen they would have an out for that scenario

[GilletteNorth]

The discussion made me think of the following joke:

Memo to all Employees

Dear Employee:

As a result of the reduction of money budgeted for department areas, we are forced to cut down on our number of personnel. Under this plan, older employees will be asked to take early retirement, thus permitting the retention of younger people who represent our future. Therefore, a program to phase out older personnel by the end of the current fiscal year, via retirement, will be placed into effect immediately.

This program will be known as SLAP (Sever Late-Aged Personnel). Employees who are SLAPPED will be given the opportunity to look for jobs outside the company.

SLAPPED employees can request a review of their employment records before actual retirement takes place. This review phase of the program is called SCREW (Survey of Capabilities of Retired Early Workers).

All employees who have been SLAPPED and SCREWED may file an appeal with upper management.

This appeal is called SHAFT (Study by Higher Authority Following Termination).

Under the terms of the new policy, an employee may be SLAPPED once, SCREWED twice, but may be SHAFTED as many times as the company deems appropriate.

If an employee follows the above procedure, he/she will be entitled to get: HERPES (Half Earnings for Retired Personnel's Early Severance) or CLAP (Combined Lump-sum Assistance Payment).

As HERPES and CLAP are considered benefit plans, any employee who has received HERPES or CLAP will no longer be SLAPPED or SCREWED by the company.

Management wished to assure the younger employees who remain on board that the company will continue its policy of training employees through our:

Special High Intensity Training (SHIT). We take pride in the amount of SHIT our employees receive. We have given our employees more SHIT than any company in this area. If any employee feels they do not receive enough SHIT on the job, see your immediate supervisor.

Your supervisor is specially trained to make sure you receive all the SHIT you can stand.

And, once again, thanks for all your years of service with us.

[natej]

Some people have written their test already in Vancouver and are waiting for a response... some of us are still waiting to go write the test, and have not heard a thing (me). And I'm referring to IFR as well, not just VFR.

[aklinz]

Just to update all of you as to the situation here in Edmonton FIC. Two guys took their 35K and have received their letters and signed them. Very clearly stated that if they change their minds now they are still OUT. One guy asked for VFR training; was told definitively there was NO VFR training in the CYEG FIR. Two guys were already in the EOCO "stream" and have now been given letters for their May 17th course (CZEG IFR). All others who looked at IFR cross training refused to sign.
Still no sign of an HR plan...

[floatyghosthat]

wow. sounds rough. I'm still hoping for VFR eventually. Don't think I'll take IFR. Tried that before, don't want to risk it again. As far as I know, YVR, YWG and YYZ are still offering VFR training. Sounds like it's a little behind, thanks to the new simulators...

[Winglet]

I applied for VFR and IFR Xtraining and wrote in YEG (but for YWG FIR) a couple of weeks ago. I'm still waiting to hear my results and it seems like it's taking forever (thanks to the long weekend). I'm only considering this risk to my job since we have to relocate for my husband's job anyway.

Just wondering how much truth there is to all the rumours about ATC animosity towards FSS who Xtrain? I don't know which way to go if I pass...I thought VFR would be more like FSS but then I've been told by lots of guys that actually because it's so similar, it is difficult to break FSS habits and with a much shorter training time, there is a high CT rate. The guys I've spoken with think that IFR is so different from FSS that it's like starting a whole new job with no bad habits. Although, YEG guys were telling me they only have a 17% success rate there! Anyone have any theories or input? If I make it through the testing and checkout either of these jobs would be a dream for me.

[IFRATC]

I will truthfully admit that in our job there is a bit of ''elitist'' mentality. It stems from the bravado that is inherent to what we do. Having said that, when we train others in ATC whether it be VFR or IFR a certain pride and passion also arises.
After reading this thread I can honestly say I was completely unaware of what this company is doing to you guys. I have not heard a whisper of this at work and that is truly sad. I will say though, that as us on the ATC side become more aware of your predicament, most will feel empathy towards you.
In fact, when faced with training an FSS who, if CT'ed would be terminated from employment by the company, most ATCers would do all they could for your sucess.
This is totally new waters we are treading in. Speaking for myself (and I believe most ATC types), if an FSS bretheren was faced with this reality, most would do all they could. I would want the same for myself if the reverse scenario were true.
My only advice is to stay positive, be flexible, and willing to take constructive critique. I am sure the company will do all they can to cut costs in the ab-initio phase of all this x-training. Take it upon yourselves to get as much info as possible so that you are prepared. Any contacts in the ATC world will be your greatest asset for information and manuals. Rely on yourselves and the ATC resources you have, NOT the company.
I wish you all the best.

IFRATC

[natej]

IFRATC.... will you be my OJI?

[Winglet]

Ha ha Nate!

But seriously, hoping you're in YWG. Thanks for the message, it's nice to hear that you understand the predicament we're in, if we CT. I've got 6 years in the company and I'm hoping to stay with it for the rest of my career.

Ugh...still waiting for results though. "I am slowly going crazy..1..2..3..4..5..6..switch"

[aklinz]

Hello Winglet.
I have 23 years in the FSS world, and count many VFR and IFR controllers as friends. Having worked in both CYVR and CYEG, all I can suggest is put 110 % into your training ! Also, CZVR ACC has a much higher checkout ratio than CZEG, and the old moniker "The Killing Fields" still applies to CZEG....
We have two FSS here who are just starting their CZEG IFR course in May, but they are in the old EOCO stream.
Regards and good luck !
Andrew Klinzmann

[Winglet]

Thanks so much for the luck.

Teeny, tiny rant. Only given three weeks notice to move and start training. Fine...I can handle it. But they only sent the precourse CD in time for me to have ONE week to go through it while preparing my house for sale, getting ready to move...not to mention working and driving there. It's scheduled to be a 13 week course. How rude! (they could have at least mailed it when they gave me the short notice...what on earth were they waiting for?).

I know that as an FSS I do know a lot of it but still. Kind of puts me behind the 8 ball, doesn't it? I just thought that since we signed away our return rights as FSS we would at least be given the same consideration as someone off the street. Our jobs are at risk from the onset of training. Sigh...oh well, it'll get done and the course (although there are some mistakes) is actually well put together.

[NJ]

For how long into training do you retain your rights as a represented ATSAC member?

[bigfssguy]

0 is the number NJ, if you took the deal it is a one way street. Either check out or get another career. It was done to reduce the number of FSS overall, if the person who accepted the deal does not check out there will be no job back in FSS, they will be let go!

[sigmet77]

It's not much different than the EOCO program, on that you areno longer an ATSAC member as soon as you hit the floor. Thet problem now is that the deals ATSAC would make to get your job back are not going to happen in today's climate.