Bearskin Airlines and PC-12's

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:07 am

I remember that a few years ago Bearskin Airlines operated a fleet of Pilatus PC-12's and spoke well of them. I visited Bearskin's website today and note that Bearskin only operates the Metros now. Does anybody know the reasons behind Bearskin's decision to get rid of the PC-12's and which airlines in Canada presently operate the type?

Any other thoughts anybody wants to share about the use of the PC-12 in a scheduled air carrier operation?

fingersmac · Post by **fingersmac** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:53 am

They were sold to Wasaya Airways along with their northern routes.

pilotman15 · Post by **pilotman15** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:35 am

AirSprint uses them and so does Ornge.

linecrew · Post by **linecrew** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:10 am

At least one of them went to Air Bravo and still wears most of the Bearskin paint.

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:49 am

You are a little mistaken in one respect -- Harvey hated then - thought they were too expensive to operate because maintenance costs were out the roof because of cost of parts - the aircraft did not stand up well with large number of cycles associated with his scheduled flights.

For me to see the Ontario gov doing a complete 180 on their past policy of crew experience levels, twin turbine aircraft means this is driven by perceived money savings at the cost of safety - I'm very surprised the group riding in the back bought into this -- they were always very proactive when they thought it was their asses on the line in the past. Damn there was a snake oil salesman somewhere -

Sorry i hijacked the thread but single engine IFR does not make it in my books -- yes I know all the arguments but to allow these airplanes to operate commercially

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:45 am

Not many privately owned airlines operate the pc-12 as scheduled service.

You see Wasaya using them (mostly ex-JV birds) on the routes that JV sold them. However wasaya is native owned, and unlike JV. Even NAC couldn't make it work, and their fleet was mostly PC-12's.

JV has operated every airplane out there for many years. They know the north, they know sched service, and they know what works and what doesn't. In their market and type of operation, they did not make the PC-12 work.

Each operation is different, but in my opinion, PC-12's are not the best suited to do this job.

For sprint (i.e. customer paying high $), and for government contracts (aero-medical), money is available to make the operation work. For penny pinching passengers, not so much.

Cap'n P8 · Post by **Cap'n P8** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:08 am

If I'm not mistaken, Wasaya outright own most of their a/c ie. no leases. I flew them for two years with Wasaya, and I have to say they were very reliable from what I saw. The main issue with them as far as I could tell was the flap system, which was upgraded. I can only remember having one flap problem myself in the two years.

As for NAC, weren't they at least partly native owned as well? I think they bit off more they could chew too quickly ie. huge new hangar, lots of new aircraft, expensive new paint jobs, etc.

Red Line · Post by **Red Line** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:16 am

Panama Jack wrote:I remember that a few years ago Bearskin Airlines operated a fleet of Pilatus PC-12's and spoke well of them.

What you probably heard was the airline saying passengers spoke well of the plane. Compared to the 99s or 100s, the Pilatus was indisputably a step up in passenger comfort (yes, I've flown both as pilot and passenger).
Pilatus operators in Northern Ontario include:
Nakina
Air Bravo
North Star
Wasaya
3 police services (RCMP, OPP, NAPS)
and soon to be Ornge
(Although to answer your original question, only 2 of those operators offer scheduled PC-12 flights.)
Bearskin unfortunately was one of the front runners for the Pilatus, and a few design improvements/options have since made them more adaptable to Canada's winter climate (e.g. flap redesign, dual batteries, etc.) They are still extremely expensive machines though.

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:25 pm

Actually, it was a chapter in a book dedicated to the PC-12 where Bearskin spoke well of the type. To be expected, of course, given the nature of the book.

I appreciate the quality of the replies given by a number of posters to this thread. Thanks fellas.

Rudy · Post by **Rudy** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:22 pm

There isn't another airplane that I'd rather be flying doing 12 sector days in the north. It's quick, simple, easy to fly, has the range to hold an alternate in another country if I need it. Drawbacks are purchase cost and parts....and of course engine out rate of climb

. Good luck telling the locals they have to take the caravan from severn to tbay on a summer afternoon now that they've been in the flight levels.

Many Bearskin pilots beat the shit out of their's and let's face it so did NAC. Be nice to them and they're as reliable as a watch from the same country.

Intentional Left Bank · Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:37 pm

Rudy wrote:Many Bearskin pilots beat the shit out of their [PC12s]...

Care to elaborate on that statement?

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:18 pm

Rudy wrote:
Many Bearskin pilots beat the shit out of their [PC12s]...

Care to elaborate on that statement?

Where can one get better entertainment for free?

Intentional Left Bank · Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:37 pm

. . wrote:
Rudy wrote:
Many Bearskin pilots beat the shit out of their [PC12s]...

Care to elaborate on that statement?
Where can one get better entertainment for free?

My curiosity was piqued, he didn't say "[he] thinks..." or "in [his] opinion...", he's making a statement of fact.

Chuck Ellsworth · Post by **Chuck Ellsworth** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:45 pm

Yes, I know ...therefore my comment.

JayVee · Post by **JayVee** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:44 pm

Rudy wrote:
Many Bearskin pilots beat the shit out of their's and let's face it so did NAC. Be nice to them and they're as reliable as a watch from the same country.

Not sure where you got your information from, but all the Bearskin Pilatus pilots I've known, and I've known ALL of them, have never "beat the shit out of them."

Can you elaborate on your allegation beyond the ignorance that it is?

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:23 am

Why so sensitive guys. What next, get lawyers and make him retract his statement?

How long has JV been operating the metro? We know it's not a forgiving airplane, and knock on wood, they been doing great with them. This is a fact, and it obviously proves his comment wrong.

Chill out.

midnight elf · Post by **midnight elf** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:54 pm

I worked on PC-12's at the Bear from the first day they got them. They were sold on the idea that they get to altitude faster and cruise at higher speeds than the beech fleet. Which is good for long routes, which Bearskin didn't have in the north. Most of the flights were 15-20 min. Plus it only holds 9 people and maybe all their bags with no cargo, so space was limited with a full plane. It was a challenge maintenance wise to get them to operate in the cold but Pilatus got that engineered out. Maintenance costs were high, one PC-12 monthly bill was equal to the entire beech fleet monthly bill. Plus Kelner is not known for their good prices. It was a nice plane but they couldn't use it strengths. And pilots didn't beat the shit out of them.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:00 pm

Cap'n P8 wrote: As for NAC, weren't they at least partly native owned as well? I think they bit off more they could chew too quickly ie. huge new hangar, lots of new aircraft, expensive new paint jobs, etc.

NAC was 100% Native owned by a few Bands in Northern Ontario, when they closed there doors it had nothing to do with money................. well let me rephrase that, it had nothing to do with lack of money in the company and everything to do with "directors" who's bands also had "interests" in Wasaya.

But Agreed painting the fleet, new huge building, routes that didn't make alot of sense,

Many Bearskin pilots beat the shit out of their's and let's face it so did NAC.

well hmm should I, ahhhh let me grab a beer.......

The PC-12 is a very forgiving Aircraft and it would take a lot to "Beat the Shit out of it" that being said there where new pilots flying it without much operational experience that gained their "experience" on it. To that point the PC-12 Is by far the most reliable aircraft I have flown, doing many cycles a day, the ease of flying made long Duty days no worries, Avionics and approach speeds to get in when the weathers down and not break a sweat, Awesome range to go anywhere and short field performance, quick turns with the big cargo door to jam all the pop and chips in. And the huge savings on not giving ear plugs to passengers.

However, the huge capital outlay to obtain this fine aircraft and maintain modern avionics competing against the likes of metro's that are indisputably "beat to shit" then beat back into a relative forum of an Aircraft who's only cost is the trade in value of the scrap metal and a bottle of whiskey with an insurance cost to reflect only passenger liabilities will on a cost basis Vs the 40K a month lease/insurance on a PC-12 brings us back to simple economics.

Bearskin Airlines and PC-12's

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