Olympic security screw up

[Widow]

Federal aviation planners continue to develop aviation security regulations to apply during the 2010 Vancouver Winter Olympics. Fundamental to this planning is the Olympic Control Area (OCA), an area within 13 nautical miles of Vancouver International Airport. Regulations applicable to this area will be in force for almost two months from January 29 to March 24, 2010.

All goods and persons must be screened at a designated security “portal” prior to entering the OCA. Air Taxi operators and small regional airlines arriving from airports where no CATSA screening exists will be required to divert to a portal for screening before entering the OCA. Unfortunately, this will increase the cost of landing fees and fuel and will cause passenger delays. Flight schools within the OCA will be prohibited from any flight training operations between 5pm and 9pm nightly. No solo flights will be permitted and all instructors and students must be pre-screened by CATSA.

These security regulations will impact heavily on the revenues of flight schools and small carriers. The Air Transport Association of Canada is presently preparing submissions to attempt to recover some compensation for these restrictions.

http://www.ahbl.ca/files/Transportation ... b09pdf.pdf

There were stories on the news last night. I thought I heard that today there would be an official release of information with respect to transportation in the "olympic control area" ...

[Old Dog Flying]

I managed to get on the Bill Good show @ CKNW this morning regarding the flying school/no training issue but how far this will go is anyones guess...probably not very far! We need more people phoning into the talk shows.

[2R]

Does this mean more carbon emission taxes to pay for the olympics ?
Or what will they call the next tax grab by those who said the Games would pay for themselves.

Let the games begin: the first game is the fleecing of the taxpayer .

Why not let the drug companies sponser their guinea pigs to help fund these elitest indulgences

[canwhitewolf]

dltd

[337]

So let me see if I understand this. A 172 can't do circuits at Boundary bay and a 1900 from Port Hardy can't land at YVR during the games but a corperate BBJ or chartered G5 from the US or Mexico are allowed to enter the airspace. Will charter and corporate flights require their passengers to go through screening? What a joke.

Maybe we could set up security screening for the flight schools. They could self screen over the phone, it would be like clearing customs by calling canpass.

[iflyforpie]

We can't inconvenience the elite can we? After all it is them we are protecting from the masses.

FK the Olympics!

[Skyhunter]

First let me say I feel for everyone that may lose income in aviation because of the olympics and they should be justly compensated for reasonable losses.

That being said, everyone step back for a minute and think about how you would protect the airspace if you were in charge. Also think about if you were someone in a terrorist organization what you could do if you were intent on suicide and willing to go through significant effort to smash a 152 into something. I can think of tons of things I could try and do. I will not post them here, because if I was a terrorist I would be reading boards like this for those idea's.

Think about the issue from the point of view of fighters on alert (on ground or already airborne) as well as the command and control authority req'd to shoot down a civil aircraft. Again without talking about stuff that I would not want terrorists to read I am sure you can figure out for yourselves many of the difficulties that having lots of GA aircraft flying around would create.

Quit simply, if I was the commander tasked to defend said olympics, I would make just as harsh rules and would want an even bigger no fly zone. Trying to defend said airspace will be difficult, remember those that are trying to do so do not purposely want to hurt your lively hoods but to do their jobs. We look at doing those jobs as saving lives, maybe yours.

Again I hope all get properly compensated for any loses, but please consider those on the pointy end carrying missiles have their jobs to do, including not shooting down one of you, or missing the real bad guy because many of you are flying around.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Just who are these terrorists?

[Skyhunter]

Remember, those guys back a few years ago... flew some airplanes into a couple of buildings... some people died... oh... wait... can't happen in Canada we are too nice... Oh,,, yeah... there are countries coming to the Olympics that some people might want to target to make a point even if they think we are too nice.

., I usually have lots of time and respect for your comments, but that one, not so much.

[beaverbob]

Some on here are missing the big picture.
A terrorist is not going to land at YVR so landing at another airport and then going through security is a useless waste of time and money.
He is going to use the plane for his damage, so what do you do?
Close all airspace and airports in rural canada?
Stop all seaplanes, c-150's etc?
A terrorist wants to make a large impact. Most planes in the general aviation fleet just don't cut it.
Closing down flying schools just will not have any effect.
BB

[Pratt X 3]

...protect the airspace...tasked to defend said olympics...Trying to defend said airspace...saving lives, maybe yours...consider those on the pointy end carrying missiles have their jobs to do, including not shooting down one of you, or missing the real bad guy because many of you are flying around.

Oh, save us Big Brother, save us!!
We are beginning to see the same bullspit that pilots south of the border have had to deal with the last few years. So much for the freedom of flight.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

., I usually have lots of time and respect for your comments, but that one, not so much.

If you take that comment in the context that I asked the question it should logically lead us to a rather simple conclusion.

The terrorists that have been attacking innocent civilians have all or mostly all come from a group of religious fanatics and " generally " should be identifiable with due diligence by those in charge of national safety and it is a bit of a stretch to believe any serious attack would come from the flight training sector of aviation due to the size of the airplanes flown in that arena.

But just for the sake of argument lets suppose that a terrorist was to take off from a local Vancouver airport in a small training aircraft is the security net around the area so weak that this airplane could actually fly to a target and crash into it without being intercepted?

Surely a terrorist group would think bigger than that?

[Skyhunter]

edited to add the living in the bubble comment was specifically for x3

You think flying a 152 into Olympic village, or a floatplane into the outdoor speed skating oval won't make a big news impact for a terrorist organization? You are living in a bubble then. There are bad people in the world that don't have your values. If you can't see that then you probably don't think we need cops either cause no one is going to rob a bank either.

I am a supporter of general aviation. I hope to own my own aircraft in the not to distant future but there will be times and places when for security reasons I won't be allowed to fly it.

Take a look at both sides and have little understanding for those with a job to do.

Will it have an economic impact, it sure will, should those affected be compensated yes. Are no fly zones and some other fairly extreme measured required, I 100% believe so. If you can't see that, I actually feel sorry for you.

I won't be posting on this thread again, as I have made my point and won't be labour the argument and pull the thread into name calling.

[flying4dollars]

I just sent the following to the BC government as well as the opposition.

Is it true that there will be a complete stand-down for 54 days, of all flying training in the Vancouver area????? There will undoubtedly be a few Flying Training Units (Flight Schools) hit very hard. When it is all over who will replace their income. I don't mean just the instructors wages but also the lost revenue of the companies.
This is a very marginal business at the best. Some of these schools will not recover if this is true. Why close business for something so optional and temporary as the Olympics.

Same with the scheduled and charter airlines who are to be disrupted by the following.

During the 2010 Olympics it will be forbidden to fly into YVR with passengers that depart from any airport without security. If you depart places like Port Hardy, Powell River, Tofino and any number of airstrips, etc. your plane will be required to land first at an airport with security, such as Nanaimo, unload your passengers and then send them through security, reload them, then you can finally go to YVR. (Both terminals affected)
I wonder how that will affect the schedules? How about the seaplanes landing on the river?
No security available for Seaplane operations. Do they give up on the airport for the duration as well?
Going to be some large delays and expenses!

I can see legal action by the likes of Harbour Air, Seair, Westcoast Air, Pacific Coastal etc.

Bob Bates

I understand your good intention here, however I don't know if it's ethical to include the names of operators who may seek legal action, on their behalf without their authorization/blessing. By doing this, you may be implying that you 'know something', and consequently maybe putting those carriers names on the line or under any form of unwarranted scrutiny.

I would consider (if you haven't yet sent them a letter) re-wording that to read "I can see legal action being taken by some local coastal operators who may be affected by your 2010 restrictions"

Just something to consider $.02

[2R]

I just hope that when i drive a truckload of fertilzer for some of my green friends and their grow ops ,the security do not get tazer happy on me or think that a truckload of fertilzer would be used on the sea to sky for anything other than growing natural herbs for sick people.Although i bet it will be impossible to rent a ryder truck about the same size as the McVie ryder truck that week as all the fooking terrorists will have them booked

[canwhitewolf]

dltd

[StudentPilot]

What would stop someone from renting a plane elsewhere, and planning a flight that takes them near the OCA, but not into it (on a flight plan of course, it'd probably seem more innocent)? What stops them from turning their 152/206/Navajo loaded with explosives towards some Olympic venue? Are there going to be anti-aircraft batteries and/or fighters flying around the clock to intercept, warning, and shoot down these planes before they can fly 26, 13, or fewer miles into the OCA? I'm sure if someone wanted to, they could easily fly a plane into something. I'm sure anyone planning on flying into an Olympic venue would rather use something bigger (say, a private jet or airliner) because a. a bigger planes means more explosives means greater likelihood of destroying something; b. many larger aircraft are faster, and would give Big Brother even less time to intercept and destroy them; and c. more of a shock value, especially if they hijack the plane first and have passengers on board like 9/11. It seems like a show of supposed security that won't really do much.

My money is on some PPL accidentally ending up in the OCA and taking all sorts of sh!t, while the terrorists will not show up because they don't really care, or they'll get through anyways.

As someone else already pointed out, is there going to be a ban on all vehicles in Vancouver? You know, the terrorists and similar groups seem to really like using cars as bombs. Maybe no one in Vancouver should be allowed to drive between designated hours and without a security clearance for themselves and their passengers/goods.

[Pratt X 3]

Well StudentPilot, its a good thing Skypunter has sworn off this conversation or he would tell you to get into your bubble . And he would probably tell you to stop giving those bad terrorists all those evil ideas on how to disrupt the sacred Olympics. At least he feels sorry for me in my thinking that no fly zones created to give the public warm fuzzy feelings would do nothing to stop a slightly intelligent, determined terrorist from completing his dastardly deed even when there are many easier ways to create events of 'shock and awe'. Maybe I should try selling my bubble to the Olympic organizers; after all, that seems to be the main by-product of this security racket; making money off people's fears.

[Topspin]

Even more billions spent for a major headache and zero gain to the public.

CATSA security accomplishes nothing anyways.

[Eleveniron]

What a fantastic false sense of security they are presenting to the public.

Maybe I missed it already posted, but what about courier flights?

[Topspin]

What a fantastic false sense of security they are presenting to the public.

Maybe I missed it already posted, but what about courier flights?

Good point, the ramifications of this go pretty far too.

Bulk cargo, general mail, Canada post, etc are not even screened at this point, let alone passing through a CATSA portal.
With the amount coming in on regularly scheduled commercial flights, well, are they going to hire thousands of new screeners, severely delay it via ground shipping or just cancel it?

[AuxBatOn]

So much for the freedom of flight.

Last time I checked, flying is a privilege. Just like driving your car.

Well StudentPilot, its a good thing Skypunter has sworn off this conversation or he would tell you to get into your bubble .

Insulting people won't make your argument stronger.

I'm sure anyone planning on flying into an Olympic venue would rather use something bigger (say, a private jet or airliner) because a. a bigger planes means more explosives means greater likelihood of destroying something; b. many larger aircraft are faster, and would give Big Brother even less time to intercept and destroy them; and c. more of a shock value, especially if they hijack the plane first and have passengers on board like 9/11. It seems like a show of supposed security that won't really do much.

If we take the attitude "it won't happen", then we should really, like Skyhunter said, fire all the the law enforcement personnel, because people won't steal, kill, etc. The Olympics are an international, high profile event. Even a small terrorist/criminal act would give huge publicity to whatever organization would be responsible for the act. Further to that, aviation acts are that much more "sensational" than something with the same amplitude on the ground. Therefore, I think it is appropriate to impose some restrictions in events like the Olympics (just like they did when the G8 was in Calgary). Is it perfect? Probably not. If you wanted the Olympics to be 100% secure, then they should create a no fly zone within 500 NM of Vancouver. That would not be practical, therefore they came up with something that yes, will be inconvenient to most people involved in aviation around the area, but that will provide a sufficient security margin. However, there will ALWAYS be people whining about everything.

Freedom is not free.

As far as the "do not give ideas to terrorists" comment, X3, I'm sure you'd be surprised to see where theses people take their ideas from....

[Old Dog Flying]

Auxbaton: The whole question of the security for the Olympics is not in any way a reflection on you or any of the other guys/gals who are part of our defence system, but on the methods used by VanOc. The people who are being laid-off at the race track next to one of the venues are now going to have their wages covered by the committee but the people employed in the FTUs are hung out to dry with no compesation what-so-ever...and that is my big complaint. There are at least 10 flying schools affected by the shutdown of the airspace and I expect that 3 or 4 of them will not survive the 54 day closure. And none of the instructors will see a cent of compensation through no fault of their own. Now is that fair? These people are paid for flight time only and would not even qualify for EI.

The small commercial operators will be given the short stick as well with the restrictions placed on them and many will feel the hardship of these restrictions...again with no help or compensation from the Olympic Committee.

I fully realize the need for the tight security but why is it just aviation and not other forms of transportation, that is being hit!

And for the others on this board that think that it "won't happen", think again! We have home grown/imported hostiles living right here in Vancouver, North Van and West Van and they are just waiting for "the call".

[AuxBatOn]

ODF, I'll echoe what Skyhunter said: the affected companies should be compensated. Has anyone done anything yet about it? Has anyone requested why Flight Schools won't receive compensations, while the race track will? Whining here won't likely have any impact. However, bringing that up to your local MP, mayor, city council or whatever organisation could help your cause.

[Widow]

Just a point from my post at the top of page two ...

These security regulations will impact heavily on the revenues of flight schools and small carriers. The Air Transport Association of Canada is presently preparing submissions to attempt to recover some compensation for these restrictions.

The article is from a legal firm ... http://www.ahbl.ca/ ... maybe they know more about the submissions etc.