solo recommends

[goldwing]

Looking for comments

I am a class 4 instructor. I have 1 solo recommend, 1 licence recommend thus far. I have had this student from the start and was ready to have him solo but the cfi said out to the practice area. We did that and I sent him with the cfi again for the presolo check. The cfi soloed my student on that check ride and stole the recommend. Reason given at the time "he was at flight test standards and it could not wait until next flight". To me this sounds like BULL and everyone I have questioned at this point, including TC says that is a low blow by the cfi. I get the impression that I need to down grade my instructing at my FTU.

Comments from instructors and CFIs.

[Hedley]

The cfi soloed my student on that check ride and stole the recommend. Reason given at the time "he was at flight test standards and it could not wait until next flight".

Hold on a sec. If he is a CFI, he must be at least a class 2
instructor, since he is not the only instructor at the FTU.

Solo recommends are completely unnecessary for any
class 2 to move up to a class 1. Only flight test recommends
count, and in fact both class 2 and 1 require 10 flight test
recommends!

So, from a "counter" standpoint, there is absolutely no
motiviation for a class 2 (or 1) to steal your solo recommend.

I suspect the student was chomping at the bit to go solo,
and the CFI let him. Poor timing on the CFI's part - he
should have done the check ride a flight or two ago

Think about it from the customer's standpoint - they have
to pay for TWO checkrides before solo, and then again before
flight test, if they train with a class 4 instructor. What screws
the customer is that few FTU's offer a discount for training
with a 4, even though the FTU pays the 4 substantially less.

Sorry about this, but I really doubt your CFI was out to
get you - he sounds more clumsy than malicious, to me.

As a class 1 instructor, I go to great pains to pass off
solo and flight test recommends to whatever class 4's
are around at the moment, because I remember how
eager I was, to upgrade to a 3.

[deflux]

Are students being taught by Class 4 instructors required by TC to be checked out by the CFI before going solo or is that just the policy of the individual FTU?

I haven't heard of that happening at the school i'm at...

[goldwing]

The cfi is a 1. The recommend means nothing to him. I had the student ready for solo back in November but the cfi made me take him out the PA again because he newly instated 2 check rides, one pre curcuit, one pre solo. My student was away until February and had not done any circuits in the mean time, except of course from the home field. My mistake was that I trained the student too well. This cfi now has no respect from me because of this move and other incidences that destroyed any trust.

[767]

Whats the big deal? like, who cares if you didnt get to reccomend that student. Just relax, and send another student solo soon, im pretty sure you have more than 1 students to send solo. dont worry too much about it. If i were you, i wouldnt care.

[Hedley]

Are students being taught by Class 4 instructors required by TC to be checked out by the CFI before going solo or is that just the policy of the individual FTU?

It's simply bizarre that absolutely no one knows what the regulations are:

CAR 421.63(2) and (3):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#421_63

421.63 Class 1 or 2 - Supervision of the Holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane and Helicopter

When providing direct supervision to the holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating, the holder of a Class 1 or 2 Flight Instructor Rating - aeroplane or helicopter shall:

(2) specify the intervals at which progress checks are required, which shall be at least once before the first solo flight and once before the flight test for issue of the pilot licence;

(3) conduct the progress checks specified in (2) above;

The FTU (CFI) has NO CHOICE but to comply with CAR 421.63

The cfi is a 1. The recommend means nothing to him

Right. So, what is his motivation for screwing you, as you claim?

[vrrotate]

In my opinion you should still be able to count this student towards one of your solo recommends. You (as a class 4) do not have to fly the with student on the flight immediately preceding their first solo flight. This is just one of those weird ideas that have cropped up in FTUs over time. If you were the primary instructor and felt that he/she was safe for solo by the time the CFI did the check flight with them then you get a solo recommend.

Now the issue is... how was the solo authorized in the PTR?

If you cannot argue to the CFI that you still deserve a solo recommend for the student then in the future, sign the solo authorization in the PTR as soon as you feel that they are safe for solo. Of course they cannot go solo until doing a check ride with a supervising instructor and the conditions of the day are what they are able to handle.

Same goes for the flight test. Authorize it in the PTR when you feel they are ready. Even before the check ride.

[pilotman15]

Whats the big deal? like, who cares if you didnt get to reccomend that student. Just relax, and send another student solo soon, im pretty sure you have more than 1 students to send solo. dont worry too much about it. If i were you, i wouldnt care.

767 that has to be one of the most rediculous comments I have ever read. Who cares? Well where to begin...firstly goldwing cares, especially if it is a small FTU. He/she has obviously worked hard and trained this student properly and if the CFI feels the student is at flight test standards already at solo...goldwing has put in all the work, and isn't getting any credit for it. Who knows how long it will be until he/she moves up to a class 3, and BETTER pay as well as career opportunities/advancements, say for example to a bigger FTU or instructing on multi etc.. Sounds like a pretty low blow by the CFI, only other reasoning I could think of would be to try and keep goldwing a 4 as along as possible to draw more money from paying customers for extra check rides, as well as pay the 4 less, allowing the FTU to profit. However, this would be a super low blow to both you and the customer, and I highly doubt this is the case.

[FlaplessDork]

Could it be that the student should have soloed earlier? Where you milking the student for hours? Did the CFI say on the first presolo ride that he was ready earlier and not to cause the student any further delay? Maybe it was a dicipline measure. Maybe the CFI is trying to take a stand against instructors soloing students at 25+ hours.

Just a thought. Or maybe he's just a jerk. I got dooped out of a solo when I was going for a 3 by my CFI, but it was my own fault. Gotta remember they are the schools students and not yours.

[goldwing]

Some good comments and suggestions. yes the cfi is a slez that gets off on a power trip. Even TC said it was a low blow.

Could it be that the student should have soloed earlier?

yes but the cfi instructed me to take the student back to the pa.

yes pilotman15 I do care a great deal as you say. This was my first from scratch student. Did I do everything right? I don't know. I do know that the student now has a good base of skills to complete the PPL quickly. It is my goal to ensure that the student puts his skills to use. I have also learnt that If the student is able to keep the greasy side down he is good to go for the circuit. It doesn't mater that they are unable to keep a straight approach and landing because they are up and down and don't know the difference between center line and the field next to the runway or what controls AS and glide.

yes vrrotate The cfi signed as the recommending instructor not allowing me to claim it. I am looking to move on to a 3. Lesson learned is to sign the recommend when I feel the student is ready so I don't get screwed over next time.

[Lurch]

Why would a Class II or I even care to steal a solo recommend? It does nothing toward there licence.

Sounds like the CFI is a dick and if this is the type of BS they pull I would leave ASAP and make sure my students know where I am transfering to.

767 the more of your garbage I read the more I realise you are on a retarded fishing exhibition and I no long care to waste my time with your dribble. If this isn't a childish game I hope your CFI reads this crap and fires your useless ass and saves the industry from you before you do anymore damage.

Lurch

[767]

It is my goal to ensure that the student puts his skills to use.

Im glad to hear that. Thats the way it should be. In addition to skills, i think knowledge is also important. The more the student knows, the better it is (most call it "overloading", which i disagree with as most know here) Keep up the good work!!

It doesn't mater that they are unable to keep a straight approach and landing because they are up and down and don't know the difference between center line and the field next to the runway or what controls AS and glide.

It matters. This is one thing i stress with my students. A bad approach = A bad landing. I like to teach students that when they are on final, the scan should be "airspeed" - "runway" - "airspeed" - "runway" .. and so on all the way down until flare (correcting approach if required with attitude and power etc.)

* Goldwing, I did not mean to offend you in the last post. I know what it feels like when you dont get credit for the hard work you put in. But, i bet you there will be more bad things that will happen to you as you progress with your career. It is best to not complain, but you should be proud of your work. Let this reccomend go, next time im sure you will do fine. Ive met alot of people (in aviation and outside aviation) who just like to complain and complain. If its a major issue, sure go ahead and complain. But if its a minor issue, leave it and move on. Wish you good luck!

[767]

Sounds like the CFI is a dick

If this isn't a childish game I hope your CFI reads this crap and fires your useless ass and saves the industry from you before you do anymore damage.

Lurch

you dont seem to like CFI's .. hmm

[gustind]

It is an unforunate lesson that you learned. I don't think anyone would have expected the CFI to do that and I completely understand your position.

It sounds kinda korny but I would stay there and do the best job ever.

Any info on the student though? Solo hours? Large breaks? Level of skill?

Cheers,

[767]

It sounds kinda korny but I would stay there and do the best job ever.

Yes, go the extra mile!

Show em you'll stand there and fight to the death with him over it.

Goldwing, do not argue with the cfi. Keep in mind, you will need him/her as a reference in the future. However, if the same thing repeats, then its hard to decide whats best to do. Maybe instruct at a different FTU? If i had an idea i would tell you, but ive been in these situations myself when i was working other jobs in a different field.

Just dont get too tough with the cfi, that wont be good as far as im concerned. cheers.

[AuxBatOn]

Actually 767, I would bring up the point to the CFI. There is a way to bring up a point without arguing. If you don't stand up for yourself, no one will.

[767]

Actually 767, I would bring up the point to the CFI. There is a way to bring up a point without arguing. If you don't stand up for yourself, no one will.

I agree with you. But to what extent one must go is a hard decision.

[AuxBatOn]

I personally would not question his decisions, but rather ask the reason behind his decision :

"Is it possible to know why you recommended him for his solo, instead of sending him back to be first?"

If he asks you why you want to know, you reply that for you, every recommend is important for your progression as an instructor.

If he doesn't want to give you a reason, it's your call. Are you ready to have a CFI that does whatever he likes without an thoughts for his employees?

If he comes back with a reason that you agree with, problem solved.

If he comes back with a reason that you don't agree with, don't argue, take the reason and come back a few days later with a suggestion on how to change that.

[767]

Well said AuxBatOn. Just a question about the last point you made. How many times should you try to offer a solution if the cfi didnt agree with you each time? In my opinion, id probably try just once.

[AuxBatOn]

Well said AuxBatOn. Just a question about the last point you made. How many times should you try to offer a solution if the cfi didnt agree with you each time? In my opinion, id probably try just once.

Bring up 1 solution per problem. If it is discarded then so be it. You tried. If you made it that far, the CFI should give a reason as to why he doesn't agree with your suggestion.

Generally, supervisors hate employees that criticise the system without providing any solutions. However, they appreciate employees make an effort in understanding the way they do things. Now, don't do that for every little thing that you don't agree with. You'll just be anoying. Just pick your battles.

[wabi101]

767 .... I realise you are on a retarded fishing exhibition ...
Lurch

yup he has been a trollin'

[Tim]

maybe he didnt want you to get the upgrade quick so he could pay you less, is it his flight school? if not than this isnt very likely

[Shiny Side Up]

In the case presented, I'd be mostly put this one in the category of not blaming malice to what laziness, clumsiness or stupidity can easily explain. I would go maybe as far to say that perhaps the CFI in this case has not be doing his supervision as well as they should and this student got a little farther along then they would have liked without soloing. This seems likely to me as they've needed to institute the pre circuit check addition to a pre solo check - it smells of something they've made as a concession to TC in their last base inspection or such to improve whatever problem the inspector had, most likely from the PTRs on hand.

[mcrit]

Couple of points here. A supervisory ride is not a check ride. It should not be an 'extra' flight, but instead it should be worked into the regular training program to help keep the student's costs down. I always used to ask to see students twice before solo (1 time before they start on circuit work and 1 time before 1st solo). I always liked to do the solo check about 2 flights before the first solo, just to make sure that the student was in the TDZ, on centre line, straight and could do an EFIC. Provided the student wasn't too far out of whack I'd just pass the points on to the instructor and give them some specific things to imporve prior to sending the student solo. The same thing with post solo supervison. I wanted to see the student before their first solo to the practice area and about 2 flights before their prefight test. I'd ask the instructor if the student had any weak areas they wanted me to take a look at (I'd add these items to the standard stuff I checked). Again, I would pass the points on to the instructor and let them do the polishing and the preflight test.

Goldwing: I don't know the details of your situation, but I'd suggest a direct approach. Tell the boss, firmly but politely that he has bladed you (don't use my phrasing ). Make it clear, (again politely), that you will not tolerate that sort of thing in the future. The only way to get a bully off your back is to confront them. If this doesn't work ( And I get the impression from you that this guy has been jerking your chain just for fun), I'd suggest that you grin, bear it, get your class 3 and then start to make quiet exit plans. If he is really going to block your attempts to get the class 3, start making quiet exit plans now.

[goldwing]

We talked, subject dropped.