Flight "Service"??

[Doc]

Ironically, I spoke with some IFR buds today who said they give out WX all the time on freq - metars, tafs, RCS's etc. So ATC can give out WX while being responsible for IFR separation but FSS has other more pressing duties? WTF indeed.

So true. I can pick up my destination or alternate wx any time I ask right from center. Matter of fact, the guys at center will always offer to pass us the weather, RSC and whatever else we need prior to an approach clearance. But, can I get an FSS person (who probably was the guy who filed the weather in the first place) to give me weather at HIS station? I'm guessing, no.
Go ahead...jump all over me....I'm getting used to it. I just think it's wrong. Help me to understand, even if you do have a snow plow on the runway, unless you're driving the thing, how would that prevent you from passing along a request for YOUR current weather?

[grimey]

The magic words, btw, are "ABC Radio, GDEF, we're unable to raise the FIC on <FISE frequency>, request METAR and TAF for ABC". Same thing works for flight plans.

The rule is truly stupid, but FSS is only doing what they were told to. METARs and TAFs and flight plans are considered and en-route service, to be provided only by FICs. Expect non-FIC FSS to take a while filing a flight plan, though, as they've probably filed one in the last 5 years.

[thatdaveguy]

Ironically, I spoke with some IFR buds today who said they give out WX all the time on freq - metars, tafs, RCS's etc. So ATC can give out WX while being responsible for IFR separation but FSS has other more pressing duties? WTF indeed.

So true. I can pick up my destination or alternate wx any time I ask right from center. Matter of fact, the guys at center will always offer to pass us the weather, RSC and whatever else we need prior to an approach clearance. But, can I get an FSS person (who probably was the guy who filed the weather in the first place) to give me weather at HIS station? I'm guessing, no.
Go ahead...jump all over me....I'm getting used to it. I just think it's wrong. Help me to understand, even if you do have a snow plow on the runway, unless you're driving the thing, how would that prevent you from passing along a request for YOUR current weather?

What troubles me about your posts is you make them out to be personal insults to the people who are in flight service. I completely understand why you'd be frustrated with some of our policies as a company (there's some really stupid ones) but we're just here trying to do our jobs without breaking the rules everyday. I'm sorry that may mean you might be inconvenienced and have to hit 126.7 up for enroute weather, but there's SFA I can do about that.

I would LOVE if pilots got together and forced the company to change some of our policies, as it is dictated by lawyers and not common sense. Fact is, pilots aren't complaining, so why would the company improve anything?

[IFRATC]

Familyguy,
I work IFR. Don't know what FSS priorities of duties are. But...look back at your posts. You are being hypocritical. You are telling these FSS people that "thou shalt give the wx if requested". Well they are following proper protocal if they say "unable" and give you another frequency. 99% of the time, like ATC, we WILL bend over backwards to help or provide requested info. Your LEAR example is ridiculous......If a Lear pilot is requesting wx 120 miles out and is denied because of whatever proper reason...GO TO THE FIC. If the Lear in your example is bingo fuel then maybe he should fucking speak up and say "we are requesting wx. at destination and whatever alternate BECAUSE WE ARE LOW ON GAS"
That FSS will fucking drop WHATEVER THEY ARE DOING, jump through hula hoops, learn a new fucking language, cut their limbs off, etc to do WHATEVER THEY COULD TO ASSIST AN AIRCRAFT THAT MAY BE POTENTIALLY DISTRESSED.
I wish any of you ATS bashers could be anywhere near an ATS unit when a distressed aircraft is requesting assistance. Your disrespectful fucking bashing of true professionals would be retracted at the first sniff of your foot entering your egotistical mouthes. These people go to work day in, day out and do exactly what they are supposed to do without thank you. There satisfaction comes ONLY from performing there duties professionally and within the rules. They will continue to perform such duties even with the faint stench of your unknowlegeable critic of there jobs. Think about your senseless rants next you may require assistance. Or better yet tell an AWOS, see how much help you'll get.

IFRATC

[lilfssister]

IFRATC

[IFRATC]

To further add to my last post....
Here are some thoughts to ponder before making a moronic judgement about what you as pilots percieve to be shitty service. I am speaking specifically about this thread.

1. Maybe just maybe the FSS you so highly regard in this thread (sarcasam), was on a different MF giving a detailed icing report to one of your bretheren.
2. Maybe they were coordinating an IFR departure on another MF.
3. Holy shit they may have been in communication with RCC about a distressed aircraft.
4. Could have been talking to Centre relaying an IFR arrival so that the next guy in the stack could get his clearance.
5. How about providing a DF steer on another frequency to a lost VFR aircraft.

The list goes on. Even you would agree that these tasks take precident over giving out the latest METAR.
The FSS in question could have said "unable" without giving a reason because they were to busy dealing with a high priority task.
What are you pilots taught when it comes to priorities? AVIATE, NAVIGATE, then COMMUNICATE...
Your request may have been low priority.
Think about this next time you decide to post a rant and decide to shit on someone who may have for good reason told you "UNABLE". Here's a thought...Someone with professional integrity may have politely through this forum asked the REASON they were denied service BEFORE jumping to retarded conclusions and rants about someones job. I don't understand how time and time again on this forum anyone with 50 hrs. + thinks they know everything about the ATC and FSS occupation. It shines a light on those who are unprofessional and truly ignorant.

IFRATC

[thatdaveguy]

To further add to my last post....
Here are some thoughts to ponder before making a moronic judgement about what you as pilots percieve to be shitty service. I am speaking specifically about this thread.

1. Maybe just maybe the FSS you so highly regard in this thread (sarcasam), was on a different MF giving a detailed icing report to one of your bretheren.
2. Maybe they were coordinating an IFR departure on another MF.
3. Holy shit they may have been in communication with RCC about a distressed aircraft.
4. Could have been talking to Centre relaying an IFR arrival so that the next guy in the stack could get his clearance.
5. How about providing a DF steer on another frequency to a lost VFR aircraft.

The list goes on. Even you would agree that these tasks take precident over giving out the latest METAR.
The FSS in question could have said "unable" without giving a reason because they were to busy dealing with a high priority task.
What are you pilots taught when it comes to priorities? AVIATE, NAVIGATE, then COMMUNICATE...
Your request may have been low priority.
Think about this next time you decide to post a rant and decide to shit on someone who may have for good reason told you "UNABLE". Here's a thought...Someone with professional integrity may have politely through this forum asked the REASON they were denied service BEFORE jumping to retarded conclusions and rants about someones job. I don't understand how time and time again on this forum anyone with 50 hrs. + thinks they know everything about the ATC and FSS occupation. It shines a light on those who are unprofessional and truly ignorant.

IFRATC

I couldn't agree more.

[W0XOF]

Very well put! BZ

[bop]

IFRATC... very well put. glad someone on this thread is being logical and making sense

[Offset]

I couldn't have said it better myself IFRATC.

[bigfssguy]

Nice post IFRATC, we FSS appreciate the remarks, we never get any respect anywhere so threads like this are not a surprise to us.

I can think of the perfect story regarding this. I have a buddy of mine and he is very much an FSS basher. He once told me we weren't even part of the aviation community, he's reading this right now i know it, and let it be known it took everything in my power not to drive his teeth down his throat....but i digress. We finally talked him into coming up to the tower (YTH a fairly busy site) and eating his lunch there rather than in the terminal. The comment out of his mouth once he watched me work for about 10-15 minutes "wow you guys do a hell of a lot more than talk on the radio". by his estimation we just sat around eagerly waiting for the radio to go off so we can do our advisory. There is usually a fair amount of other duties going on behind the scenes that the pilots don't see. Just like in the cockpit there is mroe going on than calling for weather and getting advisories, you have to fly the plane and what we see on our end is just a small protion of it.

I have sat in the jumpseat and watched pilots work (prior to the ban of course) and was amazed at what went on in there. It's neat to see how the other half live. I recomend all pilots to pop into the tower and have a look at what we do you might be surprised what is going on. As for the reason for this thread i haven't refused to give weather to someone that is within a reasonable distance to my station or in inclement wether. If your 120 back well call the FIC since you are still in the enroute phase of your flight and thats what my brothers and sisters in the FIC get paid to do. I'm sure there was a reason to not give the weather, there is a million reasons why they wouldn't but when you boil it down unless it's a part of the advisory we have been instructed by the high muckity mucks not to provide enroute weather since that is a FIC job. We listen to our bosses, the same as pilots listen to there bosses when they are told to follow the SOP's.

[IFRATC]

Everyone,
Thank you for the responses. I did not go off like that for kudos though. I truly am sick of reading threads like this. Unless these retarded unprofessionals stop the slagging, I will always continue to submit posts to enlighten the simpltons!!!

IFRATC

[FamilyGuy]

Ah yes the Mob mentality. Nice. The personal attacks while nice really are off the mark. Re-read what I posted - I never asked anyone to break any rules - only to stop mindlessly hiding behind them.

I find it rather odd that the best answer (although aggressive) to the original question and mine, came not from an actual FSS'er but an IFR ATCer??? Nice.

Anyway I found this thread somewhat interesting, since someone here brought it up.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=51420

Just one more thing I can't let go. Since when do FSS work in the "Tower". It may physically be a "tower" but that term is normally reserved for the "Tower controllers"....or maybe I'm just getting old and think terms like that might have other connotations....or maybe that sorta proves my point all along.

Okay one more thing, when FSS "controls" vehicles, what is to stop an airplane from taxing out in front of me short final - apart from the pilot? Can FSS say "hold short" and actualy mean it, or is this just one more advisory service - when workload permits? (sarcastic rhetorical question of course).

Just to be perfectly clear, FSS very much has a place in the system. Everyone just needs to know what that place is?

[W0XOF]

Family Guy. For one, you got your ass handed to you on a platter! Not a silver platter, because that would be to good for you!

Mob mentality? What are you nuts? An IFR controller (the only one I believe in this rant) let you have it during your FSS bashing, what am I missing here? I think that speaks volumes! He was speaking as a professional.

You obviously don't have the mental capacity to understand that FSS have a mandated job to do. We don't care what you think it should be. There are much smarter people then you making up the rules and regulations. In fact, because of pilots like you, there are rules and regulations. Keeps me employed. Thank you, just bought a new truck.

I work one of the busiest IFR movement FSS in Western Canada and 99% percent of the pilots are professional and a pleasure to work. That's what makes the system safe! You my friend (I say that loosely) are a fucking hazard!

Times are obviously changing for relics like you. No more flare pots, time to hang em up. For the safety of others.

[W0XOF]

Oh ya BTW, I work in the cab of a 5 story air traffic tower. What would you like me to call it Einstein??????? The FSS castle?

Friggin idoit!!!

[thatdaveguy]

Oh ya BTW, I work in the cab of a 5 story air traffic tower. What would you like me to call it Einstein??????? The FSS castle?

Friggin idoit!!!

haha, you really should

[bop]

Familyguy. the more you post on this thread, the less you are making sense.


"Just one more thing I can't let go. Since when do FSS work in the "Tower". It may physically be a "tower" but that term is normally reserved for the "Tower controllers"....or maybe I'm just getting old and think terms like that might have other connotations....or maybe that sorta proves my point all along."

tow⋅er [tou-er] –noun 1. a building or structure high in proportion to its lateral dimensions, either isolated or forming part of a building.
FSS do not call themselves "tower" on the radio, however many of them to work in tall buildings, which by definition, are definitely towers.


"Okay one more thing, when FSS "controls" vehicles, what is to stop an airplane from taxing out in front of me short final - apart from the pilot? Can FSS say "hold short" and actualy mean it, or is this just one more advisory service - when workload permits? (sarcastic rhetorical question of course)."

FSS provide positive vehicle control service... what does this have to do with an airplane taxiing in front of you?
FSS are able to ask an aircraft to hold short, I've seen it done many times and I've never heard of an aircraft ignoring this request. Since this would most likely be a safety issue, it would fall into the priority of FSS duties somewhere near the top... before providing weather to enroute aircraft.

"Just to be perfectly clear, FSS very much has a place in the system. Everyone just needs to know what that place is?"
From some of your previous posts, sounds like you are the one who doesn't know what the FSS "place" is.

I could be crazy, but it seems like you hold some sort of a grudge against FSS. Not sure why you would.

[it'sme]

Reading some of the total nonsense on this and other threads.....well there are days I am embarrassed to say that I am a pilot. I mean really guys, get a grip!

[grimey]

Okay one more thing, when FSS "controls" vehicles, what is to stop an airplane from taxing out in front of me short final - apart from the pilot? Can FSS say "hold short" and actualy mean it, or is this just one more advisory service - when workload permits? (sarcastic rhetorical question of course).

When you "control" aircraft, what is to stop the pilot from disobeying your instructions? Whether you instruct him to hold short, or I advise him of traffic on final and suggest he do so, it's ultimately his decision to go, as he's the only one who actually had hands on the controls of the aircraft. The only difference is that if you're unnecessarily restrictive in your control instructions, the pilot will still get in trouble for disobeying them, where as if he rejects the advice of an FSS and nothing bad happens, nothing bad will happen to the pilot.

Or are you suggesting that there has never been a runway incursion by a pilot who was issued and acknowledged a hold short instruction from a VFR controller?

[lilfssister]

Okay one more thing, when FSS "controls" vehicles, what is to stop an airplane from taxing out in front of me short final - apart from the pilot? Can FSS say "hold short" and actualy mean it, or is this just one more advisory service - when workload permits? (sarcastic rhetorical question of course).

Yeah I see your point, since I've never seen a CADOR where a pilot taxied onto a runway, crossed an active runway, or took off without clearance, after having been told to hold short, at a controlled airport.

[kevenv]

Or are you suggesting that there has never been a runway incursion by a pilot who was issued and acknowledged a hold short instruction from a VFR controller?

Controllers have runway incursions?

[Mohun]

FSS working in castles. I love it.

Yes, in rare occasions, FSS can and do issue "instructions" to pilots. I have done this when pilots are not paying attention and an accident may be immanent. Pilots do not have to follow those "instructions", but in the 3 times I have had to do this, not one pilot ever disobeyed. And yes, one was a pilot about to taxi out in front of an aircraft on short final.

Another thing to remember, the way things are set up to work between the AAS units and FIC's is something that pilot's wanted. This was done without the support of FSS, as we all know the old way was a far superior service. But, this is what pilots wanted. Don't come crying to me now that this service doesn't quite suit your liking.

Do you also complain when a tower controller switches you to the ground frequency to get your clearance even though the tower controller may not be busy? These are called procedures and we are not given much leeway to work around them.

[FamilyGuy]

These are called procedures and we are not given much leeway to work around them.

This debate started and centered around a pilot being refused WX at the station served by the FSS. Granted we never did establish whether said aircraft was actually landing at that airport.

I took/still take issue with the "priorities of duties" arguement and alot of other comments.


BTW, this book defines a control tower as the place where ATC Tower controllers work. It seems to indicate FSS types work in either a Flight Information Center or a Flight Service Station. Granted I suspect some FSS take over Tower cabs during off hours...or when they get closed permanently.

I appreciate most the responses (I may be gruff but if I didn't GARA this thread would be boring) but WOXOF, I've been around long enough to know how to play if you so desire. I've been careful not to single out any individuals - only the ideas they put forward. Grimey hits back hard without the degenerative personal attacks

[W0XOF]

BTW, this book defines a control tower as the place where ATC Tower controllers work. It seems to indicate FSS types work in either a Flight Information Center or a Flight Service Station. Granted I suspect some FSS take over Tower cabs during off hours...or when they get closed permanently.

I appreciate most the responses (I may be gruff but if I didn't GARA this thread would be boring) but WOXOF, I've been around long enough to know how to play if you so desire. I've been careful not to single out any individuals - only the ideas they put forward. Grimey hits back hard without the degenerative personal attacks

You're right about one thing if you feel I have singled you out. Surprisingly it's because you are the only pilot that feels the way you do on this thread and that has been stating false information regarding the duties of an FSS (eg. vehicle control). I refuse to believe the majority of pilots share your beliefs, so I won't direct my posts to the "Pilots".

On the flip side, you haven't just questioned the professionalism of the 1 FSS the OP was referring, but the whole occupation.

As far as your OC concern for the use of the word "tower", it is a physical description. It often is referred to as a Flight Service tower cab, or air traffic tower. The word "control" isn't used. What you found is the proper definition of "control" tower. See the difference? Looks like you found the answer on your own without realising it (I sure hope people in the CN Tower aren't trying to control airplanes!).

Just as another poster pointed out, FSS on the radio are referred to as "Radio" by both pilots and the FSS

Look under priority of duties in MANOPS. It may not say "do not pass weather on the MF", just as it may not say "don't check your email during an emergency". It is the use of good judgment in determining which priority is more important. These constantly change with the operational situation. Since one of the FIC's primary duty is weather, that's who should be passing it and have access to more information.

Anyhow, I've wasted enough of my time on this. Over and out.
Good luck to you.

[thatdaveguy]

I'm pretty sure there's a reference in MANOPS somewhere about flipping a/c to the FIC for all enroute info...too lazy to look.