Another IFR Clearance question.

[flap16]

Anyone care to help me out (still new to this):

Lets say we departed airport ABC for airport XYZ. ABC lies directly under an air route (Class E airspace with a base at 2200AGL), and XYZ is Class E with an MF. If it is screaming VFR at ABC, but we still want an IFR clearance, can we depart VMC, climbing into the Class E airspace (ie well above 2200AGL) and then pick up our clearance once in the air before entering IMC?
Is this legal?

My understanding was that an IFR aircraft needs prior permission for a VFR departure?
Would this be a violation waiting to happen?

Any controllers care to clarify? Or does anyone have a reference to a section in the AIM that addresses this scenario?

Thanks.

[invertedattitude]

Perhaps I'm reading the question wrong, but isn't that the same as an airfile?

[husky]

I think you are confused as to the situation.

You would need ATC authorization to depart VFR on an IFR clearance in controlled airspace. You would not, however, require any authorization to depart VFR and request clearance once airborne. If you are in uncontrolled airspace, it is irrelevant because ATC will not give you a clearance off the ground anyways.

[ahramin]

Airfile the IFR flight plan would be filed in the air. Flap16 is talking about getting the clearance in the air for an IFR flight plan already filed.

Flap16, if the weather is VMC you can depart VFR, enter the class E, and pick up the clearance enroute. Make sure you stick to VFR altitudes and remember that you do not have a VFR flight plan. This is actually the usual way of doing things. Even in IMC many pilots will depart IFR, stay clear of the class E and pick up their clearance airborne because they are shy about getting IFR clearances over the phone. In some cases, controllers will not want to give a clearance over the phone because of the proximity of another airport nearby (see Airdrie, they have to shut down Calgary in order to give an IFR clearance on the ground).

Even if the airport you are departing from is within the class E, you can still depart VFR. However, you are not guaranteed an IFR clearance later on as you have no expect clearance by xxx time or point.

[W0XOF]

If you are in uncontrolled airspace, it is irrelevant because ATC will not give you a clearance off the ground anyways.

Just an FYI. Clearances are passed routinely to pilots on the ground at aerodromes in uncontrolled airspace via phone with the ACC or via the FIC on the phone or RCO. Just expect a WICA.

eg. CBBC, CYBD, CZGF, CYRV, CAA8, CYGE, CZAM just to name a few.

[kevenv]

I think you are confused as to the situation.

You would need ATC authorization to depart VFR on an IFR clearance in controlled airspace. You would not, however, require any authorization to depart VFR and request clearance once airborne. If you are in uncontrolled airspace, it is irrelevant because ATC will not give you a clearance off the ground anyways.

Not necessarily..... we routinely get requests at airports served by FSS, for a VFR departure if there will be a delay vis-a-vis another departure or an arrival. The phraseology we use is: "VFR departure is approved, expect IFR clearance (time after departure, place etc). Thus the a/c does not have a clearance when he departs.

ATC, can, and will deny a request for a VFR departure if conditions are warranted. An example is: a denial for the departure as a way of the controller regulating traffic to level that he can safely handle. I actually denied it once for just such a reason and the a/c departed anyway. I was somewhat taken aback LOL. I told him (after explaining why I denied it) that the next time he had better be prepared to go all the way to YUL VFR. I was a little pee'd off to say the least.

Finally as WOXOF stated below, we issue clx's to a/c to depart in uncontrolled airspace all the time.

Just an FYI. Clearances are passed routinely to pilots on the ground at aerodromes in uncontrolled airspace via phone with the ACC or via the FIC on the phone or RCO. Just expect a WICA.

just as an aside, about 5 years ago, JZA (or AirNova back then?) spent the night in ZBF, departing really early in the morning. The phone rang at the supervisors desk. I answered it, being the only one working at that ungodly hour. It was the F/O of the JZA flight asking if he could pick up an IFR clearance from me. I rattled one off and told him to call me airborne. About 15 mins later he called up climbing to FL200. I was bored waiting for the morning traffic to pick up so I identified him and said "quick question if you have a moment". He said "go ahead". I asked where he had got his clearance from? He replied that he had called the ACC and spoke to someone there. I told him that there was no one here but me and the cleaner and I never heard the phone ring. This was followed by a very very long pause, after which I told him I was just kidding, it really was me he spoke with. The captain really got a chuckle out of that saying I should have seen the look on the F/O's face.

[husky]

A VFR departure requires no authorization to depart when in a class E control zone. Whether you choose to issue him a clearance should he try to get one airbone would be another issue altogether.

[flap16]

So the answer is YES, we can depart into Class E without an IFR clearance providing we remain VMC?

I am not referring to an airfile, but rather picking up a clearance for a flight that was already filed.
Must we sqwauk 1200 until assigned a code by ATC?

Thanks.

[kevenv]

A VFR departure requires no authorization to depart when in a class E control zone. Whether you choose to issue him a clearance should he try to get one airbone would be another issue altogether.

If you choose to depart after I have denied your request for a VFR departure, you risk not getting a clx. Maybe not a big deal to you Husky, but I imagine a pilot of JZA or WJA would have a very hard time explaining the fuel burn at 12500 to their ops because they refused to wait a couple minutes on the grd. ATC does not refuse these requests just for sh*ts and giggles. I have only ever had to do it once. I think that for someone to ignore it shows very poor airmanship and professionalism.

RAC 7.9 reads in part:

Where a pilot-in-command intends to take off from an uncontrolled aerodrome, the pilot shall:
1. obtain an ATC clearance if in controlled airspace;.....

This kind of flys in the face of your statement that "A VFR departure requires no authorization to depart when in a class E control zone."

and further down;
If the aerodrome is located in uncontrolled airspace, these procedures shall be followed except that an ATC clearance is not required.

I think the last part applies to your scenario flap16. As for a code, 1200 is appropriate. If you were departing from an aerodrome with an FSS I would normally have them give you the code that I will be assigning you in your clx.

[ahramin]

RAC 7.9 applies to IFR departures. If you depart VFR it does not apply.

I think the point being missed by some is that if you depart VFR you do not need anything from ATC, but if you depart VFR and want to be able to expect to continue IFR, you need approval for the VFR departure.

I have departed VFR without permission, but like kevenv said, I was prepared to go VFR the whole way. And as I stated earlier, once beyond 25nm from an airport, you need a VFR flight plan or itinerary.

If I need the IFR, I get the clearance on the ground, whether in controlled or uncontrolled.

[husky]

I agree with you Keven, probably unwise if you are unwilling or unable to continue VFR, but it is legal.