Does the coolaid really taste as sweet as it sounds?

[Flightlevels]

From what I hear it addresses cost of living over the 5yr term and the money will compensate for options and or years of service. I really don't think it's the time to be greedy. Keep it simple and fair to build on an already good thing.

[express]

The cost of living increases are great...how about the 5% that everyone else got last year to bring the salary bands to industry standard? We'll just have to see. I consider a 5 year agreement a bit on the greedy side too though. Until I know more, I'm going to reserve judgement instead of making the mistake of debating the agreement (which I haven't even read yet) on this forum. In the end, I'm sure the agreement will be decent. Worst case, we get it all sorted out in a couple more months

[Rotten Apple #1]

The cost of living increases are great...how about the 5% that everyone else got last year to bring the salary bands to industry standard?

Well, everyone else except some of the people in this article:

Globe and Mail: March 14,2009

[express]

The cost of living increases are great...how about the 5% that everyone else got last year to bring the salary bands to industry standard?

Well, everyone else except some of the people in this article:

Globe and Mail: March 14,2009

Wow, those people in the article work for Westjet? I guess I'm out of the loop. I didn't know that things were going so bad here. The sky is probably falling too!!! Wait, I just heard a noise, what was that?!!....ahhh....forget it. Well, I'll just hope we only take a 3% pay cut then. I hope we don't negotiate a 10% pay cut. But then again, that would be better than 20% that we probably deserve. I hope it get's done quick. I'll hope for a 10 year deal now though. Just in case thing's REALLY go south!

PS. I'm just gettin' your goat JohnnyD! We all know it's tough out there. Frankly another reason a 5 years deal is too long.

What's the pass mark anyways? Does anyone know? They should state that before the vote takes place.

[JestWet]

I recently had a conversation with someone who claims to have been privy to an "almost finalized" copy of the proposed agreement. I believe he's a credible source but, I too will reserve my judgement & outspoken comments (most of them anyway) until I see an official document. Let me just say that I hope he was part of some sick joke because if this individual is right about even 1/2 of what he says is about to be presented to us I (and I'm sure most others) will be very disappointed.
I won't post the specifics on a public forum but the basic premise of our "pay raise" is a package which:
- essentially costs the company $0 ;however,
- gives the appearance of being a wage increase ;however,
- infact equates to a slight pay decrease.

The important point I am trying to make is read the new proposed agreement VERY CLOSELY and vote VERY CAREFULLY! Do not fall for the the "dangling carrots" and - Do not be afraid to vote NO if it doesn't suite your best interests.


P.S. - 5 years is 70% longer than our current agreement! They should be prepared to present us with a pretty stellar agreement if they are hoping for us to commit to something for that kind of time frame.
Even with an outstanding agreement which addressed every one of my concerns I would still be very hesitant to accept a 5 year term. This is probably of bigger concern to me than the actual terms of the new agreement. Absolutely anything can happen in this industry in that period of time.
It's probably a well thought-out time-frame in order to have our agreement come due just as we enter the next "down cycle" in aviation 5 years from now.

[tonysoprano]

It's probably a well thought-out time-frame in order to have our agreement come due just as we enter the next "down cycle" in aviation 5 years from now.

I'm very familiar with that tactic. Good luck guys. I'm sure it will all work out.

[Rotten Apple #1]

No prob express. I think I've earned an official 'shitdisturber' designation!

Personally I would love more dough. Pretty happy about the rest. Even the options have made me money; if I have to have a minimum amount of them, I'll probably make some dough off them too.

Talked to a limo driver on Thursday night who took me from Pearson to downtown YYZ, and a cab driver the next morning backed him up on the fact that it is a brutal economy out there right now. No one is spending money. I think people still took vacations this year (judging by the loads I've seen on a couple of fun destination flights), but it is going to be a rocky year for everybody (except the bankruptcy trustee biz).

I must say the new online shift trade system is great! I remember them talking about such a thing 5 and a half years ago. Nice to see we have it. Makes for better quality of life. As does the new 'Campus'. Had groundschool there last week. Starbucks, a Deli, a gym,...and it's being paid for in CASH. Name four companies right now who are paying CASH for a building. No finger pointing, but some companies are doing the sell/leaseback thing to get cash.

Yup read the new agreement carefully. Then get your wife to read it. Then phone a friend who is unemployed (you must have one) to discuss it.

Personally, my faith in my friend Tom Machum (Official 'friend' status since 1981) is going to sway my vote because I'm pretty sure he and his colleagues negotiated in good faith and tried to achieve the best deal for us pilots.

But that's my opinion only. And that opinion may be slightly tainted by the fact that I got to Captain a flight home from Jamaica on Thursday that had my brother-in-law and his wife on board. He was diagnosed with ALS (Lou Gehrig's, for those not in the know) in April last year and gets around by walker or wheel chair at this point. Consequently I'll be okay with whatever the agreement brings because, fingers crossed, no one else is going to have to wipe my ass in the morning.

Anyway here's my brother-in-law's blog (shameless plug!!):

G's blog. You'll find a link in there to a FB group that just broke 1000 members yesterday. G (Glenn) was a radio personality who helped build KROCK (Kingston). The Tragically Hip are doing a benefit concert in support of "The G Fund" on May 23rd in Kingston.

[Mach75]

Johnny D, I agree that times are tough at the moment for almost everyone across North America. However, this is not a "normal" environment. Why should we negotiate our agreement on the premise that the current economic environment worse than it has ever been in history ... and then commit to it for 5 YEARS? If they intend to use the economic slowdown as justification for a mediocre agreement then they should only expect us to commit to it for a short time frame.

[skyhigh]

Jestwet is correct. This contract is NOT the slam dunk that many thought it would be? 100% industry standard and/or Cost of living? NOPE. Some groups are getting close to nothing for a raise. Gonna be a tough sell.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Good points mach and sky.

questions.

How does cost of living (COLA) work in deflationary times? I mean, if everything is going down in price (for example only), do you get less pay too?

What is industry standard? I remember back in 2000 when I was at C3 and some gut got hired at United because he had a green card, and everybody was like you lucky f*cker.Look south now. Would you want the USA's 'Industry Standard'? How about Canada? Who do we compare? No thanks pally-wally. I'll evaluate my job/career/life on my own terms, NOT on what somebody else is doing, i.e. the Joneses.

Perhaps some of you guys came to WJ without your eyes open. Me, I was out of work. And I didn't believe anybody who told me I was going to be mortgage free in 5 years, and voila, 6 years later, I'm not. I also didn't do the ESP for two years after I got hired. I never lived on $700 every two weeks. That's right. I made a choice. And I'm okay with that. I'm doing 20% now, cause I can afford it. Perhaps some of you made some less than prudent decisions and loaded up a line of credit. Dunno.

Man, I got a sweet job. Even at the end of a long day. Even when I'm pissed off at something. It's a great job. Maybe I should get pissed off at how much money some VP at WJ is making. Yeah, there's a good way to get wound up. Or maybe I should just go be a VP.

How about I get pissed off that there's no base in YYZ? Another great thing to get pissed off at.

What did Don Bell say about the swamp thing?

Any of you guys ever meet Don? Anyway, I did a couple of times. He used to talk about the swamp thing. Maybe somebody should be talking about the swamp thing.

I know maybe I'll get pissed off today about the 8 years I spent in the right seat. At 4 airlines.

Or maybe I'll remember that we have Ports now, that weren't here a while ago. Or the fact that I don't lug around Jepps.

[tonysoprano]

How does cost of living (COLA) work in deflationary times? I mean, if everything is going down in price (for example only), do you get less pay too?

"Experts" such as Warren Buffet have been quoted as saying that when this recession is over (next year), inflation will skyrocket. Mortgage rates could go to 1970s' level, that is double digit (in the great U.S. of A). No company, including WJ will prepare its employees for that. I would not sign anything longer than 3-4 years. In fact, you might want to explore not signing anything for now and maintaining the status quo for the next little while if possible. Just until you get a better feel for where this economy is going. Be very careful. You guys have way more flexibility than we at AC. Use it.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Tony, if things get as bad as you're saying (I mean inflationary wise), and the negotiated agreement was unworkable some how, then WJ and the pilots would just sit down and rectify the situation.

Remember, this isn't a contract. We are a non-unionized workforce. We work under an agreement. We can amend an agreement pretty simply. We're voting, but it is not a binding situation by any means, as there is not any legal entity that is called the WJPA and that has any legal rights.

[idledetent]

I have heard that the new agreement includes language that mirrors our new hires "Offer of Employment" with text saying that a pilot can be terminated without just cause. If that is in the document, why? We have a very productive and devoted pilot group here. Why would management want to erode that with some off the wall indimidating, threatening language like that? Is that legal under the federal labour code or not. Anyone care to chime in here on this?

Idle

[express]

We'll just have to see.

[tonysoprano]

jd.
That's sounds pretty good but has it ever been put to the test? If you sign a five year deal, you can still make changes to the agreement? Will management be willing? We were stupid enough to sign a 6 year deal in '03 and sailed right through the good times only to find ourselves negotiating in a recession. Anyway, lots of rumors I see, unfortunately. Hope when the dust settles, it all works out. These are tough times. Management loves it.

[Biff]

JD

You think if inflation went throught the roof, you would just sit down with management and negotiate an increase. Did you do that over the last four or five years when the cost of living in calgary(the base) increased? I would think that if the agreement is signed, you'll have a hell of a time renegotiating for more money prior to the agreements expiry date.

Maybe I'm wrong, although it sounds like a roll of the dice...

[Flightlevels]

Idle,
nobody cares but you. The fact is you can get rid of ANYONE with a cheque. If you are here a year or 13. Ask Tim Morgan. btw, it begs to ask that you keep bringing this up here with no takers so why don't you go ask SW or DP yourself? or is that too inconvenient?

[twinpratts]

Blah Blah Blah...
Not sure why everybody's getting their knickers twisted over hearsay and innuendos, all the while airing dirty laundry on a public forum

[Ryan Coke2]

Any time a complaint starts with 'I heard....' it makes me a little nauseous. Most of the time 'I heard...' ends up completely or partially wrong.

How about you wait until you are certain, have read, or know as fact. Then we could discuss the reality, along with the appropriate context.

For some reason I expect more from pilots (from anywhere) than to make half cocked assumptions and accusations with no basis in fact. I can't imagine what some people are like in the cockpit if this is the information gathering and analysis that goes into decision making.

[ivanhoe]

Any time a complaint starts with 'I heard....' it makes me a little nauseous. Most of the time 'I heard...' ends up completely or partially wrong.

How about you wait until you are certain, have read, or know as fact. Then we could discuss the reality, along with the appropriate context.

For some reason I expect more from pilots (from anywhere) than to make half cocked assumptions and accusations with no basis in fact. I can't imagine what some people are like in the cockpit if this is the information gathering and analysis that goes into decision making.

Amen.

I suggest everyone cools their jets until we actually see what's being proposed.

[skyhigh]

Cost of living has still increased despite these tough economic times. The only reprieve we have FOR now is the $0.85 gasoline which we all know it not going to last this low. Take a look at Statscan.gc.ca, despite the retreat in gasoline prices, inflation as measured by the Consumer Price Index has still gone up at around 1.5%/ year for the last few years. So take our Pay-scale which was agreed upon 3 years ago, every $100 you made in 2006 is now worth $95.78. These numbers are taken from the National Bank of Canada's website using their Inflation calculator. Jonny D, So your argument that we should accept a pay cut in times of recession because things cost less does not hold water. I did join Westjet with my eyes WIDE open. I am not asking for the universe here but enough to cover the loss of income due to inflation rates. I do drink from same koolaid bowl but for you to say that we should consider ourselves lucky that we have a job and just accept whatever the company thinks is extremely shortsighted.

[Rotten Apple #1]

just accept whatever the company thinks is extremely shortsighted

I thought the WJPA had some folks in the negotiation process?

And I wasn't aware we were taking a pay cut. Perhaps the cooler heads above who advise waiting for the proposed agreement are correct. Whatever. I'm happy I got this gig. And would probably work another five years under the current agreement's T's & C's. So don't vote for me if I ever ran for a WJPA position...

[Red1]

Everyone's got to wait and see. Having flown recently with people in the know, there is no pay cut.. do you think that would fly? the pay does go up, if your expecting a 20% increase you may be disappointed (I also think you have rocks in your head). Be pragmatic and please read the whole thing.

[crazy woman]

You guys sound like Jumpin' Jack Layton who voted NO before he even saw the budget. My lady friends say that it's under wraps until the meetings. Sometimes you guys should remember that you actually have a really good career at WJA. There are a lot of others in the industry who would swap places with you.

[crazy woman]

You guys sound like Jumpin' Jack Layton who voted NO before he even saw the budget. My lady friends say that it's under wraps until the meetings. Sometimes you guys should remember that you actually have a really good career at WJA. There are a lot of others in the industry who would swap places with you.