Piper Seminole down near Fredericton

[jeta1]

Heard report on radio that a Piper twin went down North of CYFC (Fredericton) today. Three on board airlifted to local hospital, no report on extent of injuries.

[LegoMan]

All the best to those on board.

[paydaymayday]

MFC registered, so I hear from from someone i used to work with out of YFC. Anyone know what port it was based out of? YFC or YQM?

[retemirep]

Heard it was a Moncton Flight College Seminole based at YFC.

From CTV/Canadian Press:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... TopStories

The Canadian Press

FREDERICTON -- Three people were taken to a Fredericton hospital following the crash of a small plane north of the city on Saturday.

Raymond McFadgen of the Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Halifax said the twin-engine Piper aircraft went down in a densely wooded area.

A Cormorant helicopter and a Hercules aircraft were dispatched to New Brunswick from Canadian Forces Base Greenwood, N.S., after authorities picked up signals from a locator beacon and received a report of an overdue local flight.

"We diverted some aircraft and luckily the beacon kept transmitting, so that's how we tracked it down so quickly," said McFadgen.

He said the Hercules locked onto the downed plane's beacon and was able to guide the Cormorant to the crash area.

"It was in dense trees, so it was hard to find," said McFadgen. "We hoisted two sartechs (search and rescue technicians) to the ground and brought out three survivors."

McFadgen said the survivors were flown from the scene and later transferred to an ambulance to be taken to hospital.

RCMP Sgt. Claude Tremblay said police were still waiting for a report on injuries, but early indications were that they suffered "very serious and perhaps life-threatening injuries."

He said the crash site is about five kilometres into the woods and is only accessible by snowmobile.

Tremblay said investigators from the Transportation Safety Board were called in along with an RCMP officer who is a pilot and has experience assisting with crash investigations.

[sky_flyer]

all the best to all on board hope everyone comes out OK

[just curious]

News sources indicated that all survived, and two individuals are expected to be released from hospital today, while the third is being held overnight for observation.

[underwater]

Does anyone have anymore info about what happened? Weather? Training Flight? Seems as though MFC (if it is their airplane) is having a little bit of a rough go as of late. As a graduate, I'm surprised at all the latest safety issues they have had. I logged quite a bit in a time in those two Seminoles and had great instructors.

I really hope the stories are true, and all three will be ok. Fly safe people.

[Widow]

Three survivors rescued after small plane crashes outside Fredericton

2 hours ago

FREDERICTON — Two students taking flight training, and their instructor, escaped with what were described as minor injuries after their small plane crashed north of the New Brunswick capital Saturday.

Raymond McFadgen of the Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Halifax said the twin-engine Piper aircraft went down in a densely wooded area about 40 kilometres from Fredericton.

A Cormorant helicopter and a Hercules aircraft were dispatched from Canadian Forces Base Greenwood, N.S., after authorities picked up signals from the locator beacon and received a report of an overdue local flight.

"We diverted some aircraft and luckily the beacon kept transmitting, so that's how we tracked it down so quickly," said McFadgen.

He said the Hercules locked onto the downed plane's beacon and was able to guide the Cormorant to the crash area.

"It was in dense trees, so it was hard to find," said McFadgen. "We hoisted two sartechs (search and rescue technicians) to the ground and brought out three survivors."

The search and rescue co-ordination centre said the survivors were flown from the scene to the airport in Fredericton at 3 p.m. and transferred to an ambulance to be taken to hospital.

Mike Doiron, principal and CEO of the Moncton Flight College, confirmed that the aircraft was from the Fredericton campus of the college.

He said the Piper was on a local training flight and was scheduled to return to the Fredericton airport at 11:45 a.m.

Doiron said it's part of the school's procedure to contact search and rescue when a flight is 30 minutes late.

"Fortunately Search and Rescue found them, brought them out, and landed them at the airport and they were transported from there to the hospital," he said.

Doiron said the injuries suffered by the instructor, student pilot and observer student were non-life threatening.

"They were basically bruised-up pretty good, but they're in pretty decent shape," he said. "One of them may have a broken ankle, but they are still doing tests. They are extremely fortunate."

Doiron said the student pilot, who was on his first multi-engine training flight, probably had upwards of 140 hours of training to date.

He said he was working on his commercial license.

RCMP Sgt. Claude Tremblay said the crash site is about five kilometres into the woods and is only accessible by snowmobile.

"There's a tiny bit of a clearing where the trees are not very big and it looks like the plane just dropped down into the clearing," he said.

"There's a large amount of snow, which obviously cushioned their impact and probably saved their lives or certain death for sure."

Tremblay said the body of the plane was in one piece but the wings were off the aircraft.

He said investigators from the Transportation Safety Board were called in along with an RCMP officer who is a pilot and has experience assisting with crash investigations.

The search and rescue co-ordination centre said it received an initial call at 12:52 p.m. when the aircraft was reported as overdue.

Copyright © 2009 The Canadian Press. All rights reserved.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... 1NV7f7Ru7g

[paydaymayday]

Good to hear everyone's okay. That's the thing about those Seminoles... they can fly so slow, you'll hurt the trees more than yourself.

[tsgas]

the plane belongs to Can Link which has an agreement with MFC to train Chineese students out of YFC. They have had several crashes with their aircraft in the past year.

[Tim]

"several" is actually a total of 2, the other was a pre-ppl student that lost control during landing...do you work for the media?

[tsgas]

1 Crashed and was written off when the engine went through the cockpit
1 took out the approach lights while doing touch and goes at night . The light was found embedded in the wing by mtce the following morning
1 twin crashed into the the woods

So basic math would dictate the 1+1+1 = 3 crashes

Not an impressive record .

[square]

Anyone know if the SAR techs picked up the ELT off a 406MHz satellite detector?

[Widow]

CADORS Number: 2009A0218 Reporting Region: Atlantic

Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type: Accident Occurrence Date: 2009/03/14
Occurrence Time: 1104 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries: 3

Canadian Aerodrome ID: Aerodrome Name:
Occurrence Location: Approximatley 25 miles north of Fredericton (CYFC) Province: New Brunswick
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 105083-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: TSB Occurrence No.: A09A0017
Event Information
Collision with terrain
ELT/SAR/comm search
Loss of control - inflight
Missing aircraft
Aircraft Information
Flight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: PIPER Model: PA44 180
Year Built: 2007 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: AVCO LYCOMING Engine Model: O-360-A1H6
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Land
Phase of Flight: Cruise Damage: Substantial
Owner: THE MONCTON FLYING CLUB (MONCTON FLIGHT COLLEGE) Operator: THE MONCTON FLYING CLUB (763)
Operator Type: Commercial

Detail Information
User Name: MacQuarrie, Jack
Date: 2009/03/16
Further Action Required: Yes
O.P.I.: General Aviation
Narrative: At 15:26Z, several strong ELT reports were heard from aircraft in various areas (100 miles south of Fredericton (CYFC) to 40 miles north of Fredericton. The Rescue Coordination Centre (RCC) was advised. At 15:55Z the Fredericton Flight Service Station inquired about an overdue aircraft, C-GMFY, Piper PA44 180. At 16:00Z, the RCC advised that there was an overdue aircraft at Fredericton. At 17:30Z, search and rescue located an aircraft in the woods north of Fredericton. RCC advised Moncton ACC that all three persons survived and were airlifted to hospital. TSB assessing.

User Name: MacQuarrie, Jack
Date: 2009/03/16
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: General Aviation
Narrative: UPDATE TSB: During the flight, the student was asked to do a stall manoeuvre. The aircraft was approximately 3500 ASL. During recovery the aircraft abruptly entered a spin. The instructor immediately took control and started spin recovery procedures. During the ensuing dive and pull out from the spin, the aircraft impacted trees and came to rest right side up, with the wings separated from the fuselage. The aircraft was extensively damaged. The crew evacuated the aircraft by smashing out the front window. The door was unable to be opened due to trees up against the door.

[Cat Driver]

Interesting.

There is no mention of what the power setting was, such as both throttles closed, both engines at xx percent of full power or if only one engine was producing xx percent of fullpower.

[trey kule]

Cat, I am not speculating on this particular incident, but I have noticed a bit of a problem in new CPL pilots understanding stalls ...

here is the situation.

TC demands minimum loss on a stall for flight test. So, instructors teach students to lower the nose a little bit and slam on the power. If there is a problem with the power in a single engine trainer it usually will not be a big issue.

However, in a twin, if you just barely lower the nose, or worse try to hold it close to the stall, and slam on the power, and one engine burps, you have a big asymetic problem on your hands.
I have always believed that the angle of attack on a twin should be reduced until the a/c is flying again and then power brought back up...however..due to the training above and the maximum emphasis on min alt loss this simply is not the way it is usually done.

Which brings me to the alt. loss issue...here is a thought...dont stall a twin (except in training)
Lets put much more, much much more emphasis on recognizing the power/attitude combinations that lead to a stall and make the appropriate changes before it happens.. There is no way anybody should be flying a light twin at slow speeds /high angle of attack except near the ground (yea, I know all about high altitude,mach buffet and stalls...this is not what we are talking about here). If it happens near the ground...not sure all that training will really do you any good anyway.

Again, I am not speculating on this action, just the common training procedure for twin engine stalls that I think is inherently a bad way to teach.

[Cat Driver]

Exactly trey kule that was what I was alluding to, improper power and attitude handling can turn into a bad scene.

I wonder why TC never changes these training requirements another one is shutting down and feathering an engine that is operating perfectly and risking creating an emergency you never had until you shut it down.

[Brice]

1 Crashed and was written off when the engine went through the cockpit
1 took out the approach lights while doing touch and goes at night . The light was found embedded in the wing by mtce the following morning
1 twin crashed into the the woods

So basic math would dictate the 1+1+1 = 3 crashes

Not an impressive record .

Bullshit.

The one that hit the light landed safely. The aircraft was repaired is has now logged over 1200 hours since then.

The one that was written off was a Moncton owned aircraft, not one associated with the facility at Fredericton.

[Naveed]

Picture that was in the local paper

http://dailygleaner.canadaeast.com/front/article/604303

[Grey_Wolf]

During the flight, the student was asked to do a stall manoeuvre. The aircraft was approximately 3500 ASL. During recovery the aircraft abruptly entered a spin. The instructor immediately took control and started spin recovery procedures

Elevation in Fredericton 20m = approx 100'
roughly 3000' AGL eh? .... hmmm, leaves 1000' to play with if you have to be recovered by 2000' AGL as suggested.

IMHO, Stalls being an "Upper Air" Exercise should be done at at least 5000'-7000' AGL. Give yourself more altitude than you need.

Glad to hear all are ok, considering the picture above.

Which brings me to the alt. loss issue...here is a thought...dont stall a twin (except in training)
Lets put much more, much much more emphasis on recognizing the power/attitude combinations that lead to a stall and make the appropriate changes before it happens. There is no way anybody should be flying a light twin at slow speeds /high angle of attack except near the ground (yea, I know all about high altitude,mach buffet and stalls...this is not what we are talking about here). If it happens near the ground...not sure all that training will really do you any good anyway.

+1

[_dwj_]

Elevation in Fredericton 20m = approx 100'
roughly 3000' AGL eh? .... hmmm, leaves 1000' to play with if you have to be recovered by 2000' AGL as suggested.

According to the news report the crash happened near Nashwaak Bridge, which according to google is about 100-200m, or about 500 feet, so they would still have been about 3000 AGL. How much height is needed to recover from a spin in this plane?

[yzfer]

Cat, I am not speculating on this particular incident, but I have noticed a bit of a problem in new CPL pilots understanding stalls ...

However, in a twin, if you just barely lower the nose, or worse try to hold it close to the stall, and slam on the power, and one engine burps, you have a big asymetic problem on your hands.
I have always believed that the angle of attack on a twin should be reduced until the a/c is flying again and then power brought back up...however..due to the training above and the maximum emphasis on min alt loss this simply is not the way it is usually done.

Would one not be able to lower the nose, and instead of applying full power to both engines, apply partial power to both, confirm even power, then go to full? I haven't done my multi-training yet, but will be soon, and to me that seems to make the most sense, as an asymmetric thrust problem isn't something you want to be dealing with when trying to recover from a stall.

[Flying Low]

One of the student-pilots was manoeuvring the multi-engine Piper 4180 aircraft when he reportedly lost control, and the six-seater plane began to spin.

On another note...nice to see the media checking their facts as usual!

[trey kule]

Well,its has been 25 years since my instructor rating expired. My instruction nowadays is with new pilots checking out on company airplanes...full blown stalls are not in the curriculum..we teach recognizing the symptoms (trends that will lead to a stall) of an approaching stall.

So to answer your question. The only time you should be doing a full stall in a twin engine airplane is for training. Break the stall by lowering the nose while keeping the wings level (or leveling them) with rudder and neutralize the airlerons. And the pitch down should be enough to insure the aircraft is unstalled. No dipping it just a bit and then trying to hang it on the edge. When the aircraft is flying again..smoothly add power and make certain airspeed is above VMC. As the power comes up, increase speed to blue line and transition to a climb. The main point is to make certain the aircraft is flying and dont push the throttles through the front end of the quadrant in a big rush. Understand please, that this is general and brief..there may be exceptions but remember..they are exceptions.

TC has mandated a minimum loss of altitude. I am not sure, but I dont think in a Multi engine airplane there is a real definition of what minimum constitutes. Maybe in a single if I recall correctly. (I will leave this to those who are current with Canada standards)
For the most part, the standards, in feet, for a loss of altitude are determined by the instructor or the FTU...dont put yourself in a dangerous position because of their thinking.
What is important , in my opinion, is that you retain, or regain control of the aircraft, unstall the aircraft, and then do the transition...in that order.

If you dont get the plane flying again you are not going to make any minimums, and if the power goes up unevenly you may have more than just a simple stall on your hands.

You had mentioned you had not started multi engine training. Take a bit of advice from an old guy...learn everything you can about asymetic thrust and VMC...it is absolutely amazing how few pilots really understand this whole concept...or can relate it to the actual flying of a plane.

Now I will fade back to oblivion and let all our expert instructors critic my advice.

[C-GGGQ]

My instruction nowadays is with new pilots checking out on company airplanes...full blown stalls are not in the curriculum..we teach recognizing the symptoms (trends that will lead to a stall) of an approaching stall.

When I did my multi my instructor, and tester told me to go to the first symptom of a stall not a full stall. So i would suggest that you should not need to do a full stall in a twin. The thought behind that being they taught you a full stall and recovery in your ppl you are now to recognize the approaching stall and not let said stall happen as you will recognized and recover at your first sign. Also since you are recovering from the first sign all you should have to do is lower the nose and add SOME power not firewalling it.