Flight "Service"??

[IFRATC]

Familyguy,
Why would you find it odd that an ATC type replied to your nonesense? FSS is still part of the ATS group. Unprofessional comments about ones occupation can be responded too by anyone on this thread. Hell even most pilots who don't agree with any of your perceived superior logic rebutted your baby rambling posts.
From what I have read recently it seems like you made an effort to educate yourself on ATS manuals. Too bad you got the Coles notes version!
SO you still think that there is NOTHING more pressing when it comes to FSS tasks than providing wx to an aircraft? I suggest next time you pick up any text you read VERY SLOWLY so that you can absorb and understand the material you read.
Your rebuttal post with the "tower" vs. FSS and consequent argument truly made me laugh. Keep typing so that we can all peak into the mind of a genius please....
Come on, be a man and confess that your orginal comments were retarded. If you don't agree, read your next post, and then subsequent ones after that. With any intelligence you will conclude that they are ridiculous. So, just apologize, admit your fault, and we can all move on to intelligent, professional, and constructive conversation on this board. Otherwise we wait with baited breath for the tinkling of your keyboard and your hypebolized wisdom to grace our screens. I am laughing already...

IFRATC

[Jerricho]

[tesox2]

[FamilyGuy]

So I guess from the responses that we aren't going to get a link or have access to what procedures ATS types have to follow eh? Odd that the CARS are available to anyone, but the rules for a public company are not??? BTW excellent customer service skills displayed here so far...

Anyway the CARS are available and while I've never been a CARS guru, have a look at this. For all the really wise sages here, please feel free to ADD or CORRECT anything I missed - is that clear enough? Should I include a disclaimer so I'm not misquoted? - "I'm not saying anything definative about what the CARS say or do not say - I'm only proposing an idea for mass consumption". "I have never been tested for legalese reading comprehension skills nor do I profess to be a lawyer"......

602.96 (1) This section applies to persons operating VFR or IFR aircraft at or in the vicinity of an uncontrolled or controlled aerodrome.
(3) The pilot-in-command of an aircraft operating at or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall
(f) maintain a continuous listening watch on the appropriate frequency for aerodrome control communications or, if this is not possible and an air traffic control unit is in operation at the aerodrome, keep a watch for such instructions as may be issued by visual means by the air traffic control unit; and


VFR and IFR Aircraft Operations at Uncontrolled Aerodromes within an MF Area
602.97 (1) Subject to subsection
(3), no pilot-in-command shall operate a VFR or IFR aircraft within an MF area unless the aircraft is equipped with radiocommunication equipment pursuant to Subpart 5.
(2) The pilot-in-command of a VFR or IFR aircraft operating within an MF area shall maintain a listening watch on the mandatory frequency specified for use in the MF area.

General MF Reporting Requirements
602.98 (1) Every report made pursuant to this Division shall be made on the mandatory frequency that has been specified for use in the applicable MF area.
(2) Every report referred to in subsection (1) shall be
(a) directed to the ground station associated with the MF area, if a ground station exists and is in operation; or
(b) broadcast, if a ground station does not exist or is not in operation.

MF Reporting Procedures on Arrival
602.101 The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft arriving at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report
(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

Reporting Procedures When Flying through an MF Area
602.103 The pilot-in-command of an aircraft flying through an MF area shall report
(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position and altitude and the pilot-in-command's intentions; and
(b) when clear of the MF area.

So if I read all this correctly and didn't miss anything (possible), the pilot previously mentioned did exactly what she was supposed to do. Also is a FSS not by directing our previously mentioned pilot inside the MF to switch to another freq to get the WX actually directing the pilot to violate CARs 602.97? Conceivably not just inside the MF but actually as far back as 5 minutes from the MF? (6 miles a minute X 5mins + 5nm = 35nm out?)

There are CARs exceptions such as "when directed by an Air Traffic Control Unit", but the CARS are also clear in distinguishing from an Air Traffic Control Unit and a Flight Service Station elsewhere. Does a FSS direction/request/suggestion(???) constitute authorization by an Air Traffic Control Unit? If so where do the CARs say this?

If so, how will I be able to hear the traffic advisory service that is one of the #1 priorities of the FSS? I only need one functioning radio - even IFR flights have provisions for when they only have one radio... and I am getting a far more detailed/lengthy breifing from the FISE operator meaning I am off MF for even longer (although all I really needed was the latest SA)

Thoughts?

[IFRATC]

Familyguy,
Well your last post proves everything I have stated so far. You agreed that you have very limited or NO access to ATS manuals/procedures AND extremely limited or bordering zero knowledge of the ATS providers job. Why then do you post derogatory comments about FSS. Secondly, with virtually NO knowledge of their job you continue to attempt to school them about how they should be mandated to suit your needs. You, the user, wanted these changes. Or, would you prefer to be checking in on freq at an MF 5 min out and have to wait while an FSS type rambles on about the weather to another aircraft. Meanwhile watching a couple of VFRs zing past you!!! WAIT, I can see the start of your new thread about FSS bashing. "FSS won't shut-up at the MF--Near miss!!!!".
Albeit an attempt at humor, your comment about customer service in your last post is stupid. My posts are in response to "user naivety" more than anything. Your lack cognizance of other pilots supporting you in your arguments on this thread corroborates all my responses. Your pilots licence does not give you a single provisio/qualification to critique anyones professionalism.


IFRATC

[FamilyGuy]

zzz

[W0XOF]

Odd that the CARS are available to anyone, but the rules for a public company are not??

It's getting really hard to debate someone when all of their knowledge on the debated topic appears to be based on ignorance. Then when factual information is put to you, you don't acknowledge.

Just to correct you again without having to debate.

"NAV CANADA is a private, non-share capital corporation that owns and operates Canada's civil air navigation service (ANS)"

You're rambling.

[tesox2]

lets be a little more constructive. This is silly. Priorities are a part of everyones job, if there is a problem with service then contact the appropriate service provider rather than publicly slander a company. Also, as opposed to reacting to publicly advertised opinions, I would agree that as representatives of our company it is ill advised to lower oneself to the level of the attacker. As a reminder, we should avoid gossip or criticism that reflects on users of our ATS services or our ATS units or personnel.


And as levels of priorities are concerned, these are a few points to be considered, however as I stated earlier, if there is a problem with a specific service from a specific provider than it is best dealt with at that level, rather than an ill informed internet society.

Flight services are defined as, Flight assistance and information provided by flight service stations (FSS) and flight information centres (FIC) for aviation safety. Flight services include pilot briefings, flight plan acceptance and processing, aerodrome advisories, inflight communications, relay of ATC clearances, assistance to aircraft in emergency situations, alerting and searches for VFR aircraft, DF assistance, NAVAID's monitoring and, issuance of NOTAM and surface weather observations. This set of services are in no particular order and do not indicate priority.

[IFRATC]

I have no problem engaging in constructive discussion on this forum. If the initial thread was constructive and queried the reasons of the FSS in the first place. This DID NOT HAPPEN. The FSS in question was lynched by a few posters and bashed as a profession. Unlike you, I am not hiding behind a keyboard. Yes everyone knows who I work for. My subsequent posts were in reaction to YOUR derogatory comments only. If you feel they were aggressive then I have again made my point. Directed to you only, don't post disparaging remarks about something you know nothing about. Had your first post constructively inquired the reason this pilot was denied wx. this thread would have went off on another tangent. IT DID NOT. I was enraged at how my brethern was being slammed. This has not been a one time offence. I don't apologize for what I have said. Your preponderant voice holds no opinion to me.

IFRATC

[bigfssguy]

to answer the questions about links to our Manops, We NC employees are not allowed to pass out copies of our Manops since to is a violation our internal security rules. Personally i would hate to lose my job becasue i released internal NC documents without company permission. The reasoning is that the documents (eg:Manops) are for internal consumption and change so frequently that the Company doesn't want old versions floating around potentially with wrong information. If someone was to read old rules and wrongly mis-interpret them possibly putting them in a dangerous situation, that i believe is the intent of the rule. So Family guy, with regards to rules i'm sorry but your going to have to take our word on it. We spent anywhere's from 6months to 2 years being force fed these rules and practicing to apply them, for the most part we are pretty familiar with them.


As for your situation of 35 miles back and being switched of frequency this will not often happen unless your still with center some other extrenuating circumstances. Within 35 miles i would consider most every aircraft top be in the approach phase of there flight thereby eligible to recieve weather. If someone calls me up within 100nm requesting weather i will give them the advisory and weather and have them call 20nm back for an update. You will normally get weather if you call for it from an FSS but there are extrenuating circumstances that will trump your request. Heck sometimses the FSS is having a bad day and couldnt be bothered to give it and ships you over to the FIC, we all have bad days.

the moral is that everything we do as FSS is very tightly controlled and very little is done wihtout some rule guiding us. FSS do not write the rules only apply them on a day to day basis. If you have any issue with the way FSS do things direct your complaints towards the people that make the decisions not the ones applying them, like they say don;t shoot the messenger. Belittling FSS has no constructive purpose other than to slander us and leave us witha bitter taste in our mouths. We only want to do our job and go home to our families. For those that don;t like us, such is life, for those that appreciate us and what we do for you thank you.

[FamilyGuy]

Tesox2 and BigFSSguy, thanks for the replys.

I don't want anyone posting something for me that will get them in trouble - kinda makes sense why finding the answers is so difficult....but frustrating for a mere pilot when "someone" here said we should know what the procedures are. If its not in the AIM and a cursory read of the CARs seems to make it contradictory, how are we supposed to know?

[FamilyGuy]

zzz

[bigfssguy]

Okay the fighting is gettin out of hand, we can go around and around with these forever. Everyone knows FSS can't tell you to do anything. the only thing we have direct positive control over is vehicles and our wifes (ya right!) . If we ask you to contact Whatever FIC for enroute weather and youa re unable due to safety reasons, eg one radio, monitoring frequencies etc. tell us and if there are other pressing duties and we'll get you the weather or pizza order or whatever as soon as we can.

What we do is dictated to us via Manops and system safety & design which is the department that comes up with the rules under which we operate. the neat thing about our rules is that there is quite a bit of wiggle room to operate. Like i tell my Trainees, there are a million ways to do our jobs, none of them are wrong just different. I am not sure if there is a specific rule telling us to switch aircraft to the FIC's for weather but there is rules that state enroute weather is provided via the FIC. So we extrapolate from that rule that we are to switch an A/C over to the enroute frequency.

Can an FSS provide weather to an aircraft in the enroute phase of flight. Sure, i do it for high flyers all the time, ryanair, speedbird, lufthansa etc. teh call up in the middle of the night lookign for our weather or someone else's weather. If i have no other pressing duties i'll do it, for the most part they just want to hear anotehr voice other than the guys there flying with. Could i switch them sure, strictly speaking i should but it doesn't hurt me to do it and it doesn;t take away from my other duties. Now on the flip sidfe if it is during sched i will flip them over to the otehr frequency becasue my priority is the aircraft in my airspace, providing traffic, doing my weather, notam's checking to make sure an A/C's gear is down and runway is clear on final etc etc.


Needless to say we don't need to compare our johnsons A: mines the biggest so point embaressing yourself B: it doesn;t acomplish anything other than carrying on a thread that should have died a long time ago. Cheers!

[Braun]

Everyone has silly rules we have to follow, but it is not an FSS or an air traffic controllers job to decide which are silly and which to follow. It might not make sense to pilots and vice versa but that's the way it is. As for FSS I have found them always to be very helpful and knowledgeable when I've had to deal with them and we all highly appreciate there work, it ain't easy!

[SSFSS]

There is a good basis to not giving enroute WX for FSS at a AAS station, of course giving our own WX is a given. But remember that a FIC may have just spoken to other aircraft at your destination ( other than AAS site) and may have valuable info not necessarily out in a PIREP yet that passing on to pilots becomes mandatory when in contact. They have RADAR and SAT info that most if not all of us do not have available at AAS sites. You may get a METAR or TAF and be mistaken in expecting OK WX but encounter worse on your way in. I miss the days that we used to take care of our clients in different services, Briefings, flt planning, AAS, enroute etc.. but I'm not the one writing the checks..

No one goes to work in the morning(or other) telling ourselves that we'll piss someone off today...

just my 2 cents,
SSFSS.

[grimey]

There is a good basis to not giving enroute WX for FSS at a AAS station, of course giving our own WX is a given.

Of course, this is a direct result of Nav Canada not only discontinuing weather briefing/information training for all AAS site employees, but also removing all of the associated equipment. It's hard for a specialist to pull up the GFA if they no longer have the flight weather graphics terminal.
This could of course be resolved by simply having the specialist add "please contact XXX FIC on 123.15 (or whatever the FISE frequency is) for en-route weather" after the METAR and TAF are given. Unfortunately, the company policy is now dictated by idiotic lawyers rather than experienced pilots, controllers, and FSS. We're supposed to offer a weather briefing after accepting a flight plan too. AAS sites are still required to know how to file flight plans, but there's incapable of providing a weather briefing.

Funny story about just how dumb the company can be: in Thompson, the retractable fire escape ladder broke, and wouldn't go down. This was a big safety issue of course, so it needed to be fixed. The local manager (probably with input from above) said it would be fixed several months down the road, when the tower was refurbished. In the meantime, I asked that it be lowered so that at least it could be used as a fire escape in an emergency. The request was denied for "security" reasons, because apparently the 8 foot gap between the bottom of the ladder an the ground couldn't possibly be gotten around by someone with nefarious intent. I ignored the company's concern, and pounded on it until it was down. I then informed the manager he had a security problem with the fire escape. At one point, the evacuation procedures there said to descend to the second floor via the fire escape, and then jump to the ground (in winter, preferably into a snowbank).

No one goes to work in the morning(or other) telling ourselves that we'll piss someone off today...

I do, but my job is now packing Bombardier aircraft manuals into boxes to ship off. You'd need a hobby at work too.

[Doc]

Another method of getting around all the bullshit would be to issue an ATIS. YXL can do it. Why can't (just for example) YQK? Just the hourly wx, the RSC...you know, all the really important stuff. That would free up the specialist's valuable time to deal with that pesky snow plow. Or that inbound Lear Jet. Then all the pesky pilots would bother you for your weather. Too simple? Make too much sense? Not in the budget?

Now I've done it.

[bigfssguy]

trust me Doc, we all wish we had an ATIS, we don't like repeating ourselves over and over any more than you like hearing it. Fact of the matter is we don;t have it, and not many FSS have the purchasing power or authority over engineering to install it. Nice troll though, i'm sure someone will bite and start the fight up again. The same fights i have seen on here for the 5 years i have been posting on here. Now someone correct my grammer and flame me for it so we can get that fight going too!!!!

[tesox2]

Now someone correct my grammer and

You mean 'grammar'

[bigfssguy]

Now someone correct my grammer and

You mean 'grammar'

Sorry to busy with lear's and snow plows.

[W0XOF]

Now someone correct my grammer and

You mean 'grammar'

Sorry to busy with lear's and snow plows.

You mean "too"......

[bigfssguy]

Haa Haa! I give up!