14 dead in PC-12 crash in Butte, Montana (2009)

[Rudy]

Very sad to hear.
Having 14 on board and a bunch of skiing gear, they would be heavy but maybe not over gross. Steep turns at low altitude and a loss of control were mentioned. Does approach to stall with stick pusher activation at an unrecoverable altitude seem likely?

[Widow]

Has there been any explanation about why the pilot changed destination enroute? Maybe an undeclared problem?

[Rudy]

That was my initial thought as well. It may have just been a bathroom stop though.


edit - Both appear to be equidistant.

[Widow]

NTSB checks on plane overloading in Montana crash

By MATT GOURAS – 36 minutes ago

BUTTE, Mont. (AP) — Investigators said Monday they'll look into whether the single-engine turboprop plane was overloaded when it nose-dived into a cemetery and killed all 14 people on board.

"It will take us a while to understand," Mark Rosenker, acting chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, said at a news conference. "We have to get the weights of all the passengers, we have to get the weight of the fuel, all of the luggage."

The plane was likely designed to carry a total of 11 people, including two pilots, Rosenker said at a news conference.

Making the case more complicated, federal aviation officials said the plane didn't have a cockpit voice recorder or flight data recorder and wasn't certified to carry commercial passengers.

The turboprop plane left Oroville, Calif., headed for Bozeman, Mont., but changed course to Butte, where it crashed on final approach Sunday. The pilot gave no indication to air traffic controllers that the aircraft was experiencing difficulty when the pilot asked to divert to an airport in Butte, Rosenker said in an e-mail earlier in the day.

Rosenker said there was "no indication of any trouble when the diversion was requested to ATC (air traffic control)."

The plane crashed Sunday afternoon just short of the Bert Mooney Airport in Butte. Like thousands of small airports across the country, the Butte airport doesn't have radar control.

Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... wD973RQT00

[North Shore]

Do -12's have a CVR or FDR?

[Widow]

Operating privately, no CVR/FDR required.

[oldncold]

those who actually have flown the 12 know

that the 2areas that can get ya into trouble down low are
( besides engine failure that has been thrashed to fine flour lately) are pusher /shaker and trim runaway. it is important to know which eventis occuring and the preventative actions to take . the guys/gals that up here fly every day on them know which is which and which circuit breakers to pull to stop a bad trim or uncommanded push.

questions like the others are? was the doctor acting as p.i.c. how current was the pi.c.? and w+b ? the 12 has a very
forgiving c-of g envelope . so even if heaven forbid it was say 800 lbs over gross at take off on a flight of that distance fuel burn 500lbs first hour and 400 every hour after that . they would be
at gross on landings so that ( speculation ) seems to leave the trim /pusher / or getting to slow in ice and a lack of understanding of the effects and proper response to those events.

to the families of the lost My sincere condolences there will be many many more ? but lets not slag a very well built aircraft that when flown by properly trained and current professioanals,
and operated within the flight evelope does what it was desigend to do./

[mcconnell14]

NTSB news conferance in less about an hour. its 3:35 eastern now. so about 4:30. (probably closer to 5 pm tho)

on Fox news they had two experts on just a few mins ago, they said early reports have it flying at 300 ft above the ground when then planes nose pitched down 90-95 degrees.

both experts agreed it was most likely over weight

what a horrible story.

[jeta1]

.

[flyinthebug]

Its even worse when there are so many kids involved!

My sincere condolences to the family and friends of those lost.

Fly safe all.

[kevinsky18]

For some reason my gut is telling me they ran short on fuel and thus the need to divert and possibly why he was making such tight turns at low altitudes.

Just my gut let's see what the facts are.

[Rubberbiscuit]

For some reason my gut is telling me they ran short on fuel and thus the need to divert and possibly why he was making such tight turns at low altitudes.

Just my gut let's see what the facts are.

As much as I hate to speculate that was the first thing I thought of as well. The embarrassment factor might have been the reason for not saying anything to ATC? All that weight might have required flying at a higher power setting for the duration of the flight.

[2milefinal]

Fuel problems. Maybe.
But it also looks like quite the post crash fire. I am thinking there was fuel in the tanks(???)

[Widow]

NTSB checks on plane overloading in Montana crash

By MATT GOURAS and JOAN LOWY – 31 minutes ago

BUTTE, Mont. (AP) — Investigators say a plane that plummeted into a cemetery next to Butte, Mont.'s airport — killing all 14 people aboard — was designed to hold just 10 people.

The National Transportation Safety Board said Monday it first thought the plane could hold 11 people. But after talking to the owner, they realize it was designed only for 10.

Seven of the 14 passengers were children under 10. Mark Rosenker, acting chairman of the NTSB, says children under 2 years old can sit on the laps of adults — but only one of the children was that young.

Rosenker says investigators want to find out if the plane was over its weight limits. But he says people should not jump to conclusions and pinpoint overloading as the cause of the crash.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below ... (click here to read it)

[karl08]

The fire looks to be the spruce tree going up in flame...does not take much to get those suckers to burn and when they do look out...good fire starter in the bush!

[2milefinal]

good point

[Donald]

Witnesses who were first on the scene reported a strong "smell of diesel", so unless he had a drum in the back there was likely some fuel left. Interestng that the investigator refers to icing as "Buffalo all over again". That crash seems to have icing more as a contributing factor, rather than a cause.

Plane that crashed in Montana may have had ice on wings

Speculation about the plane that crashed Sunday in Montana shifted to ice on the wings after it became less likely that overloading was to blame, given that half of the 14 victims were small children.

While descending in preparation for landing at the Butte, Mont., airport, the single-engine turboprop plane passed through a layer of air at about 460 metres that was conducive to icing because the temperatures were below freezing and the air, according to accuweather.com "had 100 per cent relative humidity, or was saturated."

Safety experts said similar icing conditions existed when a Continental Airlines twin-engine turboprop crashed into a home near Buffalo Niagara International Airport in New York last month, killing 50.

"It's Buffalo all over again, or it could be," said John Goglia, a former member of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board. "Icing, given those conditions, is certainly going to be high on the list of things to look at for the investigators."

Mark Rosenker, acting chairman of the U.S. NTSB, told reporters Monday in Montana that investigators will look at icing on the wings as a factor.

"We will be looking at everything as it relates to the weather," he said.

Hours after Sunday's crash, federal investigators said they'd will look into whether aircraft bound for a ski resort was overloaded when it nosedived into the ground and killed 14 people on board, seven of whom were children.

Rosenker said the plane was designed to carry only 11 people, including two pilots. He surmised that some of the children may have been small enough to sit on adults' laps during the flight.

"It will take us a while to understand," he told a news conference. "We have to get the weights of all the passengers, we have to get the weight of the fuel, all of the luggage."

Federal officials confirmed that seven adults, including the pilot, and seven children died when the aircraft nosedived into the Holy Cross Cemetery about 150 metres short of Bert Mooney Airport. There were two four-year-olds on board, along with children aged one, three, five, seven and nine, reports said.

The flight was scheduled to fly to Bozeman, Mont., from Oroville, Calif., but pilot Buddy Summerfield had spoken with air traffic controllers to inform them that he was diverting to Butte, Rosenker said. During that conversation, Summerfield, a former air force pilot who logged 2,000 hours flying that type of aircraft, didn't indicate that he was experiencing any problems.

Officials have not yet indicated why the pilot decided to divert the flight, but that should not have created problems because it was the original backup plan.

At the time of the crash, it was partly cloudy, visibility was 16 kilometres and winds were from the northwest around 16 km/h, according to hourly information from the National Weather Service.

NTSB investigators arrived in Butte on Sunday night and began combing through the rubble of the Pilatus PC-12 aircraft at the cemetery at daybreak Monday.

Officials said it is not yet clear what caused the crash and the investigation will be complicated by the absence of a cockpit voice recorder or a flight data recorder, which isn't required for smaller aircraft that don't fly commercial passengers, like airlines and charter services. They expect to recover all the aircraft wreckage by Friday, but answers could be months away.

[freakonature]

How is it that the NTSB didn't know how many passengers it could hold?

[Pratt X 3]

Interestng that the investigator refers to icing as "Buffalo all over again".

"It's Buffalo all over again, or it could be," said John Goglia, a former member of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board. "Icing, given those conditions, is certainly going to be high on the list of things to look at for the investigators."

Hopefully the media got the part I highlighted correct. For an active investigator to make any statement like that is despicable. More than likely Mr. Goglia was either paid for that sound bite or is trying to cash in by promoting his 'consulting' firm by making comments such as that one.

[Flybaby]

The last radio communication from the turboprop's pilot was with the Salt Lake City center when the plane was about 12 miles from Butte, said Doug Church, a spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association. The pilot told controllers he intended to land at Butte using visual landing procedures rather than relying on instruments, which is not unusual, Church said.

Change in flight plan
Rosenker confirmed that the pilot said nothing to controllers to indicate he was having trouble, including during radio conversations earlier in the flight when the pilot notified controllers he intended to divert from the flight's original destination of Bozeman, Mont., to Butte.

"We don't know the reason for the requested change to the flight plan," Church said. "We don't know whether weather was a factor in Bozeman. There was no apparent reason given for the change in flight plan from Bozeman to Butte."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29828359/page/2/

[sprucemonkey]

Widow contributes.........

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Moving on....the PC12 left the last stop and did not take on fuel. Based on that, the plane should've had (NEEDED) around 1800lbs of fuel on board. Say the planes empty weight is 6200lbs, on take-off the plane would be at 1876lbs based on 7males and 7kids.

That makes the aircraft under-gross. Operating privately AND commercially the aircraft does NOT need a CVR or FDR. The PC12 is certified in known icing conditions and may or may NOT have encountered those conditions.



What do you contribute again?

[jeta1]

.

[2milefinal]

http://cbs5.com/video/?id=47904

[Widow]

Widow contributes.........

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What do you contribute again?

Pardon me? I made no statement about the weight, but did state that an FDR/CVR was not required. Why the dig?

[Rudy]

The presence of 7 children aged 9, 7, 5, 4, 3, 3 and 2 probably did not make for a quiet cockpit, given the overall size of the Pilatus. Is there a separator of some kind or just a curtain? Not sure if that could have played a role. Only one screaming child can rattle some people, imagine an ex-air force pilot under pressure and a facing a quick detour to his alternate in a single-engine turbine with SEVEN children in various states of need.

There is a thin curtain on the one I fly . I often have many unsupervised children on board (well, badly supervised) and while distracting I never felt it was something I couldn't just ignore. An airforce guy should be able to do the same.

ATC has even made fun of me about a screaming baby in the background of my radio transmissions. Told him it was the co-pilot.