WTF!!!!!

[mattedfred]

decrease?

[Airband]

decrease?

2007 - $1.23M/4 months (came aboard in Sep) = $307.5K/mo
2008 - $2.72M/12 months = $226.7K/mo

[mattedfred]

oops

i gotta stop drinkin n postin

i thought the 2007 stat was for the whole year as it did say 'climb to'

[Arctic84]

decrease?

2007 - $1.23M/4 months (came aboard in Sep) = $307.5K/mo
2008 - $2.72M/12 months = $226.7K/mo

Durphy joined WJ on Dec. 1 2004. Before Sept. 2007 he was president, the date you show is when he became CEO.

He did not take a paycut...

[Biff]

I have no problem with what Durfy is making. I also have no problem with what the other Executives are making. They have done a very good job at running this company and should be compensated as such.

Ok, I'll bite. What has he and the rest of the executive done to deserve making so much more than the old guard?

[Airband]

Durphy joined WJ on Dec. 1 2004. Before Sept. 2007 he was president, the date you show is when he became CEO. He did not take a paycut...

Quite right. Apologies to mattedfred, my 'oops'.

[mikeecho]

In 2007, Durfy's comp was about $600,000 + $500,000 in shares.

Now ask, where does Durfy stand relative to his peers in other industries in terms of compensation.

Compared to the 2 other CEO's listed in the G&M article, in 2008 Durfy made 80% less than the 13.35 mill taken home by the CN Rail CEO and about 43% less than the CP Rail CEO.

WJ's executive compensation plan was established and approved by the Board which approves the executive salaries to be set at below median salary levels of the Canadian comparator group, with the President & CEO: base salary set at approximately 20% below the 50th percentile (median) of the market comparator group.

Then there are some bonuses based on profit margin of the company (unlike some exec bonuses which are based on them doing nothing)

Now, ask the same question about the pilot group. Typically I hear lots of discussion from pilots at WJ about how much better the WJ compensation package is compared to the likes of AC, and I even hear AC pilots talk about how our existing pilot agreement will be used as leverage for them to get a better agreement.

From a non-pilot perspective, perhaps the WJ pilots have been a leader in compensation and everyone else was under paid relative to their comparator group.

[tonysoprano]

mikeecho.
From what I understand, yourself and CanadaEh are not pilots. Perhaps management?? Some of the pilots might respect your opinion but might also respectfully tell you that you just don't get it. But hey, as an outsider, I'm not qualified to criticize either.

[Biff]

In 2007, Durfy's comp was about $600,000 + $500,000 in shares.

Now ask, where does Durfy stand relative to his peers in other industries in terms of compensation.

Compared to the 2 other CEO's listed in the G&M article, in 2008 Durfy made 80% less than the 13.35 mill taken home by the CN Rail CEO and about 43% less than the CP Rail CEO.

WJ's executive compensation plan was established and approved by the Board which approves the executive salaries to be set at below median salary levels of the Canadian comparator group, with the President & CEO: base salary set at approximately 20% below the 50th percentile (median) of the market comparator group.

Then there are some bonuses based on profit margin of the company (unlike some exec bonuses which are based on them doing nothing)

Now, ask the same question about the pilot group. Typically I hear lots of discussion from pilots at WJ about how much better the WJ compensation package is compared to the likes of AC, and I even hear AC pilots talk about how our existing pilot agreement will be used as leverage for them to get a better agreement.

From a non-pilot perspective, perhaps the WJ pilots have been a leader in compensation and everyone else was under paid relative to their comparator group.

Ok, so no real reason why he was paid this, just that other companies are paying their executives silly amounts so why should WestJet be any different???

Maybe this is part of the problem that North American companies are having right now, they are being run by people whos primary motivation is greed.

[CCR]

Mikeecho,

take a look at CN's and CP's market capitalization as compared to Westjet's Market Cap.

CN is a $21.19 billion dollar company whose CEO makes $13.5 million. Westjet is a 1.51 billion dollar company whose CEO makes 2.72 million dollars. CN's market capitalization is 14 times bigger than ours and yet their CEO does not make 14 times what our CEO makes. Using fuzzy early morning post red eye flight math...Durf should be making 1 million dollars

[mattedfred]

but why should market cap be used to determine executive compensation?

oh yeah, because aircraft size is used to compare ours LOL

what's good for the goose.....

ask yourself if durfy is likely to retire from WJ then ask yourself if you are

who is more focused on the long term success of WJ in this case?

how many senior executives has WJ had in the last 13 years?

[CanadaEH]

Even if I were Management, why would that even matter?

I thought our employees were better than some of the comments I'm reading in here. We aren't Air Canada and there is no "us vs them" conspiracy going on here. Durfy was hired to keep this company successful when he took over from Clive and we were the third most profitable airline in the world last year. Compare his compensation to his real peers, which are the CEO's at other airlines. At least we can say our CEO has kept us profitable and out of CCAA, allowed us to continue to grow and not layoff staff, and positioned our airline to be bigger and better than we ever have been. In 2007, United's CEO made $10.3M, Continental $7.3M, NWA $7.7, US Airways $5.4, American $4.6, and Delta $3.7. If the pilot group wants to complain about their contract that's perfectly fine. It might not be what you want and you have the means to voice your displeasure by voting 'no'. But comparing Durfy's pay increase and suggesting you get something in line with that is totally unrealistic. We are a successful airline and I'm sure we'd all love to be paid buckets of money but the reality is that we have a compensation philosophy that uses comparable positions within our industry.

[mikeecho]

So here's a few items and then I'll move on from this topic...

1) I am not a pilot, so I don't necessarily get the pilots view. Conversely, pilots don't necessarily understand others perspectives. I know this because I am surrounded by relatives and friends who are pilots (granted not WJ).

I can always tell when't it's contract time. During the years inbetween, they always tell me my job sucks and that I work to much and never come out with them to do all kinds of fun things while they live the "good life" working only 10-12 days a month, travelling the world on days off, buying all the big toys with those big cheques, etc...

Then, every 3-4 years, their tone changes and they start to talk about how difficult things are, how they're never home and how they would love to have my job instead of the constant stress they endure. Then the contract is signed and once again, they consider me to be the poor sap that lives the mundane life of an office dweller.

As a manager (non flight operations), I work 6-7 days a week to ensure that my end of the business runs seemlessly. I work on my vacations, I take calls at all hours of the night, I travel and spend time away from my family about 30-40% of the time, and my pay has typically been less than those who do similar work in the same industry or other industries.

I respect the work and commitment that flight crew assume as part of their role, but I can't accept the submission that that they haven't seen a raise in years or spend way too much time away from their families (especially in a market driven world where you have been self admittedly a market leader).

Like a pilot, I took many years of schooling focused on my line of work and made a conscious decision to take the role I am in, along with all the not so enjoyable aspects. I don't begrudge anyone for trying to improve their conditions, I just suggest some people recognize that you already have it pretty good (I include myself in that category) compared to a lot of people in this business so comments on an internet forum stating otherwise will not get any of my sympathy.

2) As for no real reason to justify Durfy's compensation...what do you want...a list of what he does? I think CanadaEh covered off some pretty big points.

When pilots (or any other work group) negotiate contracts (...I have nogotiated collective agreements before) they almost always begin with a list of demands and the compansation aspect is always followed up by comparing compensation and working conditions to others who do the same work (assuming they are not the market leader).

3) Using market capitalization is not a very accurate or scalable metric to justify compensation, and could in some cases be part of the down fall of our current economy. It holds no accountability to performance. I could be the CEO of a bazillion dollar company, so that would mean I deserve a huge pay cheque? The hard fact is that I would be terrible at it and the company would probably go out of business, so where is the justification for the huge pay cheque?

The way WJ has fashioned their exec comp is probably one of the better ways to do it. Pay them less than market average and then reward them only of the company is profitable.

Having said that, I like the example that suggests that the CN CEO should make 14x more than Durfy because they are 14 x times bigger. I have 7 business managers report to me...using that logic, my responsibility is for all 7 business units, so I should get 7x the pay of the individual managers. Right now, I only get about 1.10x the pay (only a tolken increase to cover of the 7x of responsibility I have). I see a big raise coming my way using that logic.

As I said before, I don't begrudge anyone for trying to get better.

I say go for it, but please keep the hard luck stories for the negotiating table where they belong.

[Arctic84]

Mikeecho, when you were negotiating those collective agreements, did you move forward from the agreement you had? Or did terms that were agreed to in the last agreement have to be negotiated again?

[Flightlevels]

I agree with you 100 % Mikeecho,

Many here make well over 250 k as a pilot. Fat pig at the trough always gets slaughtered. Some lose the ball.

[mikeecho]

Mikeecho, when you were negotiating those collective agreements, did you move forward from the agreement you had? Or did terms that were agreed to in the last agreement have to be negotiated again?

The group I negotiated with was a smaller sized group representing about 35-40 people.

The agreement we had come to was essentially neutral to the previous agreement.

My position going into negotiations was to keep the existing agreement and extend it for 1-2 years. The company was in bankruptcy already and I was confident we could stay off the radar at the HQ level without having to ask for concessions.

The union had other ideas and we started out miles apart due solely to the compensation aspect.

The work group in question was a leader in wages compared to people doing the same job for the same company in the US and compared to their competitors locally.

They entered negotiations with a long list of small items that they hoped they could drop in favour of a pay raise.

I elected to agree to a bunch of the smaller items (some cost neutral and a few that had some cost to them), but would not agree to the wage increase.

I entertained the possibility of a wage increase (solely to keep an open mind and see what they would present), but the rationale the union provided was the stopping point for me.

They just wanted a raise because they didn't get one last time. When we discussed the troubling financial status of the company, they weren'ty interested. When we discussed how people in their classification operating out of the US took a 50% pay cut after 911 (making the equivalent of $10 less per hour than the group I was negotiating with) and completely lost their pension, they still wanted a raise.

When I told them the honest option...the pay has to stay neutral or we will likely contract out, they started to listen.

That wasn't even a negotiating tactic...if we contracted it out, we would all lose our jobs (including myself).

The reality was that we were already about $5/hour higher than the highest priced contractor and the company had already gone about contracting a huge part of their business in the US based on the same cost saving logic.

When proposed with the question...are you willing to risk your job security for more money ($1hour across the board was what they were asking) the agree to keep the status quo and the deal was done.

In the end, they agreed to a neutral contract and they still lead the market in compensation.

[Biff]

Even if I were Management, why would that even matter?

I thought our employees were better than some of the comments I'm reading in here. We aren't Air Canada and there is no "us vs them" conspiracy going on here. Durfy was hired to keep this company successful when he took over from Clive and we were the third most profitable airline in the world last year. Compare his compensation to his real peers, which are the CEO's at other airlines. At least we can say our CEO has kept us profitable and out of CCAA, allowed us to continue to grow and not layoff staff, and positioned our airline to be bigger and better than we ever have been. In 2007, United's CEO made $10.3M, Continental $7.3M, NWA $7.7, US Airways $5.4, American $4.6, and Delta $3.7. If the pilot group wants to complain about their contract that's perfectly fine. It might not be what you want and you have the means to voice your displeasure by voting 'no'. But comparing Durfy's pay increase and suggesting you get something in line with that is totally unrealistic.

You forgot to mention the CEO compensation of;
Southwest $1.9mil(approx)
Jetblue $.26mil(approx)
LOL, Durfy's compensation doesn't look too bad now eh?

I don't think anyone on this forum is suggesting that the pilots get an equivalent increase to the executives raise(100+%), obviously that is unreasonable, as it should have been for the executives, however to give yourselves that sort of increase and then offer the pilots....nothing..... well that just stinks. It gives the sense that the executives have decided to stop leading and look out only for themselves. When that happens, well, you might have heard the old saying that goes something like this...Management gets the workforce it deserves.

I don't want to suggest this is just a problem with Westjet. On the contrary, it's systemic within many N. Amer. companies, I was just surprised to see Westjet follow. Hopefully the executive can get back to leading the troops by example.

We are a successful airline and I'm sure we'd all love to be paid buckets of money but the reality is that we have a compensation philosophy that uses comparable positions within our industry.

So you have used some of the failing US airlines to support the increase in executive compensation, I guess you wouldn't be adverse to use one of the successful US airlines(Southwest) to be used as a comparator for the pilots eh?

Don't worry, I'm just joking, of course that wouldn't be reasonable.

[tonysoprano]

When proposed with the question...are you willing to risk your job security for more money ($1hour across the board was what they were asking) the agree to keep the status quo and the deal was done.

That's the best form of brinkmanship there is. How low can you go? I agree with your thoughts mikeecho. In fact, at AC we are at that very mindset right now. That is, forget the pay increase, just give us back some benefits. However, every time contracts are negotiated the economy is in a downturn and we are asked to suck it up and do what's best for the company. So as pilots we need to ask ourselves some very important questions. I'm just curious as to where we draw the line. I want my company to survive. But not at the cost of my dignity and professional standards. That comes first. But that's just me. It also comes from a guy who has seen our standards lowered not just in this country but all over the world. WJ has not experienced this too much. Doesn't mean you're insulated from the degradation of our profession in the future. Pilots who are young and have a long career ahead of them should pay close attention. Yep, "we're in a new age". "times have changed" bla, bla, bla. Be careful. Be very careful.

[mattedfred]

Durfy was hired to keep this company successful when he took over from Clive and we were the third most profitable airline in the world last year....comparing Durfy's pay increase and suggesting you get something in line with that is totally unrealistic.

weren't the pilots also hired to keep the company successful?

why is it unrealistic?

i wouldn't expect to make the same amount but if a senior executive's pay goes up because the company has a good year then EVERYONE else should see the same percentage increase

or are you saying that durfy made WJ the 3rd most successful single handled?

now that is totally unrealistic

[yycflyguy]

When proposed with the question...are you willing to risk your job security for more money ($1hour across the board was what they were asking) the agree to keep the status quo and the deal was done.

That's the best form of brinkmanship there is. How low can you go? I agree with your thoughts mikeecho. In fact, at AC we are at that very mindset right now. That is, forget the pay increase, just give us back some benefits...

I am not so sure that is the common sentiment at AC... probably will be the reality but there will be many disappointed when the dust settles.

[tonysoprano]

...just going by what most guys are saying on the line. Perhaps our poll shows something different.

[CanadaEH]

Code: Select all

I don't think anyone on this forum is suggesting that the pilots get an equivalent increase to the executives raise(100+%), obviously that is unreasonable, as it should have been for the executives, however to give yourselves that sort of increase and then offer the pilots....nothing..... well that just stinks. It gives the sense that the executives have decided to stop leading and look out only for themselves. When that happens, well, you might have heard the old saying that goes something like this...Management gets the workforce it deserves.

I don't want to suggest this is just a problem with Westjet. On the contrary, it's systemic within many N. Amer. companies, I was just surprised to see Westjet follow. Hopefully the executive can get back to leading the troops by example.

Compensation for Executives is decided by the BOD. Bonuses obviously made up a large part of their compensation this year and once the circular is released you'll see who got what. "They" (the Executives) didn't give themselves anything, as you suggest in your post. You have the means to vote on your contract and if you don't like it, vote "no". This Company and the WJPA (I would assume) will hear your concerns and come up with another contract for you to vote on. Pitting "us" (pilots) against "them" (Executive) because of how they were compensated is pathetic, militant, and simply not what this Company has ever been about. If you feel the Executives weren't or aren't entitled to what they got, that's fine - I'm not going to challenge your opinion on that. I'm curious to know how you feel the Executives aren't leading, however. You stated that twice.

[CanadaEH]

weren't the pilots also hired to keep the company successful?

why is it unrealistic?

i wouldn't expect to make the same amount but if a senior executive's pay goes up because the company has a good year then EVERYONE else should see the same percentage increase

or are you saying that durfy made WJ the 3rd most successful single handled?

now that is totally unrealistic

Pilots are hired to do a specific job; route planners are hired to do a specific job; mechanics are hired to do a specific job; and everyone who is hired by this Company is hired to do a specific job. Some are more important (skilled) to the Company and you know who you are. What happens if we start losing money quarter after quarter? I'd bet nobody would rush to blame the pilots for that. What happens if we make some poor business decisions that cost this Company more than money? Think layoffs, restructuring, or bankruptcy... Nobody is going to blame the pilots for that. The fall guy is the one guy at the top of the food chain.

You obviously feel there's a worth to your position and I'm not going to challenge your view on that. We all want what's best and I hope your group gets a contract you want. We've had some good years at WJ and I always took my "share" of that in profit sharing. I guess you can't please everyone.

[mattedfred]

so why do some employers ask for concessions in bad times if the employees don't contribute to the success of the company in good times?

all i'm trying to say is that the percentage of pay increases or bonuses should be the same for all

yes the groomer or janitor or whomever should make less than the CEO but they should each get the same percentage increase or decrease depending on the state of the company

[CanadaEH]

all i'm trying to say is that the percentage of pay increases or bonuses should be the same for all

That doesn't work in the world of business. Outside of profit sharing I don't have any bonuses attached to my job performance and neither do most in this Company, including your employee group (and I know your group has a complicated structure given options and whatnot). Bonuses at WJ are reserved for Executives within our Company and are directly tied to specific targets and performance. Had those not been met they wouldn't have received the compensation they have and we wouldn't be here talking about it. I'm willing to bet that had they seen their compensation drop you wouldn't be suggesting everyone take an equal % decrease in pay, either. In the particular case of Durfy, when did he take over his most recent title (I think it was CEO first and then President? Or was it the other way around?)? He's moved up and assumed more responsibility as Clive steps away, and as such his compensation has increased. In 2007 his salary was $430K and his total compensation was $1.234M ($167K bonuses, $86K ESP match, $275K stock option grants, and $275K RSU's). So I disagree with the notion that all positions are equal, because they are not.