Help for a very frustrated student...

[Red Seven]

Hi Folks,
Well, I've done everything but the written test and less than an hour of solo cross country (which will be a snap once the weather cooperates) but preparing for the written test is going to drive me off the deep end. I'm trying to use FGU with the FGU workbook to do navigation practice but it's not making sense. For example they want me to calculate groundspeed...no problem. I just need two points and the distance and time to travel between them. If you happen to have the Workbook the very first question seems to be asking you to calculate the groundspeed and then proceeds to ask you what the distance and time is??? Obviously I simply measure the distance on the chart but how am I supposed to get the time??? I'm obviously missing something...

Then in the Flight Planning Form included in the workbook (which is quite different from the one in my school) there is more confusion and frustration. I was taught that between the Airport and SHP you flew visually and just disregarded the effect of wind as far as your Navigation Log was concerned. But then in their answer sheet they have a different True Track from True Heading for the trip to the SHP??? The info in the workbook just gives you winds aloft not local wind conditions except to say winds are light and variable.

I can hardly freaking wait to get to question #2!

I'd love to go ask my instructor for some help but frankly I have been quite thoroughly milked and I'm not spending $50 an hour at this point for ground school tutoring. I'm a fairly intelligent, mature guy. I should have this down.

Anyway, I desperately want to get this test behind me so any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Tango01]

Okay. For the speed, time and distance stuff all you need is a simple pocket calculator (or better if you know how to use a flight computer) and remember this:

D
T S

Basically, cover with your finger the variable you are looking for. (D= Distance, T=Time and S= Speed)

For example, if you want to find the distance, just cover "D" and this triangle tells you to multiply T X S.

If you want to find out "Time", cover "T" and the triangle tells you do divide D/S and so on.

Remember that if time is given in minutes, you must divide by 60 to get de decimal value.

For example:

•An airplane covers 10NM in 7 minutes. What is the groundspeed?

-First take 7 and divide by 60 (0.116 Hrs)
-Then look at the triangle and figure it out:
S= D/T
S=10/0.116
S= 86 Kts

•If an airplane has a groundspeed of 120 KTS, how long will it take to travel 50NM?
-We are looking for time.
-According to the triangle:
T=D/S
T=50/120
T=0.41666...HOURS!

Therefore, 0.4166... x 60= 25 minutes


For the navigation, in real life if the SHP is close to your departure point, you could just go direct and give yourself an allowance for time, distance and fuel. However, because you will be facing TC, they want you to plot your track and to your SHP and calculate it.

The only thing I can say is this. Treat the Departure-SHP like any other leg in your cross country. Measure the True Track, distance, take into account wind and make your best estimate on how long it will take, what Magnetic Heading will take you there (even if your going visual) and so on.

I hope this helps. You should ask your instructor for help. If you feel like you are getting "milked", get another instructor ASAP!

T01

[Red Seven]

Thanks TO1,
What's really frustrating is that what you've said I understand already but I'm frustrated as to why these questions in FGU don't make sense and if I run into that in the Test situation...
FGU seems a useful text but it seems crammed full of lots of stuff you'd like to learn with ongoing education after you're licensed but way more than you need to know to prepare for the Written Test. I wish there were a good text with only essential knowledge for the purposes of the test. I could study FGU for the next year and still not know if I know enough...

[Tango01]

Get yourself an exam practice book.

1) The Canadian Private Pilot/Commercial Pilot Answer Guide
2) Sabrejet and Sharper Edge are both really good.

Practice until you do really well. If you don't get a question, research it, don't just memorize the correct answer.


If you want a book that gets to the point, I suggest "Pilot Prep" by Dale Nielsen
http://www.flighttrainingmanuals.com/

Good luck and let us know if you have any questions, we are all here to help!

[200hr Wonder]

Red Seven,

Here is how I like to advise my students to do navigation section of the exam:

Usually there are several questions based on a purposed trip. Take the time do a complete and careful nav log for the trip. Calculate everything out and fill out the "nav log" then once you have it complete and double checked your work go ahead and look up your answers for each question from your nav log. You most likely will not have a perfect answer choose the "most correct".

As for your example they most like said you are in a plane that travels 80knots. The wind is 330/12 knots True. You are going from Somespot to Armpitville.

You should now have enough info to plot the distance between and True Track between the two as well as variation. Once you do that wiz you wheel to get Magnetic Heading, G/S and Time. There is one leg done.

[Red Seven]

Thanks Guys,
I have gone back to FGU sample questions and am trying to answer them and research each answer again. Thank you very, very much for the study guide suggestions. I will use them if I am not satisfied with my knowledge level.
Also thanks very much for the suggested approach to the Nav Section. I am apparently going to have to learn this more thoroughly. I thought I had it down as I can do all thats required on the school forms to prepare for a cross country but the FGU form is quite different (and slightly confusing) from the Flight School form and I have no idea what the one from TC will be arranged like.
Thanks again. Any further suggestions are still welcome and I will let keep you updated on my progress to which your contributions are much appreciated!

[Shiny Side Up]

Red Seven isn't a very lucky call sign, I don't think he survives the Death Star attack...

[iflyforpie]

.'s got Red Six for his avatar and he wasn't lucky either.

[tired of the ground]

Red, It seems that no one fully answered your first question.

In real life they're never going to tell you the time taken for the trip. That's what you always want to know. Distance is easy, get your ruler. For groundspeed, just find your calibrated airspeed, correct for wind, and voila, you have a groundspeed. Go use that formula from post 2 and your set.

[767]

Hi Folks,
I'd love to go ask my instructor for some help but frankly I have been quite thoroughly milked and I'm not spending $50 an hour at this point for ground school tutoring. I'm a fairly intelligent, mature guy. I should have this down.

In my opinion, the written exam, and in some cases the flight test, should be a prerequisite prior to going on any cross country "training" flight. If you cant pass the written, atleast you can save the cash (not get milked) for a "training" cross country for later on once you are good at planning. How can you go on a cross country and not know how to plan?

anyways, im not ready to listen to objections. If i were you, i would attempt the written exam before i go on cross country, and if i cant pass it, wait to go on the x-country after i pass.. but the choice is yours. please dont complain if your getting milked, or atleast dont complain to me. Good luck

[Lurch]

Hi Folks,
I'd love to go ask my instructor for some help but frankly I have been quite thoroughly milked and I'm not spending $50 an hour at this point for ground school tutoring. I'm a fairly intelligent, mature guy. I should have this down.

In my opinion, the written exam, and in some cases the flight test, should be a prerequisite prior to going on any cross country "training" flight. If you cant pass the written, atleast you can save the cash (not get milked) for a "training" cross country for later on once you are good at planning. How can you go on a cross country and not know how to plan?

anyways, im not ready to listen to objections. If i were you, i would attempt the written exam before i go on cross country, and if i cant pass it, wait to go on the x-country after i pass.. but the choice is yours. please dont complain if your getting milked, or atleast dont complain to me. Good luck

I can't believe I’m responding to another one of your idiotic posts

Your ignorance knows no bounds

You can brief a student; they can perform all the steps and still not understand. Actually flying the X-Country will finally put all the pieces into place and they can see the big picture.

Saying your students can’t go on the X-Country until after the written is another one of your stupid “procedures”. What chapter of you big book of crap is that written?

I really feel sorry for your students, every second you spend with your students is milking them. You have nothing to offer them but a big waste of money. Most instructors after a year of instructing get better, maybe you just need two!

P.S. go back and read their post, they have less then 1 hour Solo X-Country remaining, that means they have already completed the X-Country. I guess you never picked up reading comprehension while writing that novel of yours!


Lurch

[Old Dog Flying]

I have always taught navigation from a different point of view. Why in blazes do you need to calculate ground speed. In the pre-flight planning, you know the distance from SHP to dectination...you know the time calculated from SHP to destination...NOW...devide your track line into 4 equal parts...divide your pre-planned time into 4 equal parts. Note time over SHP...note time over first check point...so you are a minute later than calculated///therefore you will be 4 minutes later at your destination...and using the same info you can do a diversion with quite accurate WAG

And don't use the arguement that there are not always checkpoints located where you placed your quarter-distance marks..try looking for land marks off your 3 and 9 positions...even on the bald-assed prairies there are plenty of landmarks.

Even . and his brother passed this exercise!!!!!

[Stan Darsh]

Hi Folks,
I'd love to go ask my instructor for some help but frankly I have been quite thoroughly milked and I'm not spending $50 an hour at this point for ground school tutoring. I'm a fairly intelligent, mature guy. I should have this down.

In my opinion, the written exam, and in some cases the flight test, should be a prerequisite prior to going on any cross country "training" flight. If you cant pass the written, atleast you can save the cash (not get milked) for a "training" cross country for later on once you are good at planning. How can you go on a cross country and not know how to plan?

anyways, im not ready to listen to objections. If i were you, i would attempt the written exam before i go on cross country, and if i cant pass it, wait to go on the x-country after i pass.. but the choice is yours. please dont complain if your getting milked, or atleast dont complain to me. Good luck

I can't believe I’m responding to another one of your idiotic posts

Your ignorance knows no bounds

You can brief a student; they can perform all the steps and still not understand. Actually flying the X-Country will finally put all the pieces into place and they can see the big picture.

Saying your students can’t go on the X-Country until after the written is another one of your stupid “procedures”. What chapter of you big book of crap is that written?

I really feel sorry for your students, every second you spend with your students is milking them. You have nothing to offer them but a big waste of money. Most instructors after a year of instructing get better, maybe you just need two!

P.S. go back and read their post, they have less then 1 hour Solo X-Country remaining, that means they have already completed the X-Country. I guess you never picked up reading comprehension while writing that novel of yours!


Lurch

+1 Yeah this guy's full of useful knowledge.

[767]

P.S. go back and read their post, they have less then 1 hour Solo X-Country remaining, that means they have already completed the X-Country.

Lurch

So then why is the student asking how to calculate time/distance/speed?

p.s. Its been suggested to me by some that posting here is a waste of time.. It all seems to make sense now.. Im not sure if i will stop posting yet, but soon...

And as for the original poster of this thread, i dont force my opinion on others. Just like to pass on my tips.. if you like it good, if not then that is also great.

[Invertago]

I have always taught navigation from a different point of view. Why in blazes do you need to calculate ground speed. In the pre-flight planning, you know the distance from SHP to dectination...you know the time calculated from SHP to destination...NOW...devide your track line into 4 equal parts...divide your pre-planned time into 4 equal parts. Note time over SHP...note time over first check point...so you are a minute later than calculated///therefore you will be 4 minutes later at your destination...and using the same info you can do a diversion with quite accurate WAG

And don't use the arguement that there are not always checkpoints located where you placed your quarter-distance marks..try looking for land marks off your 3 and 9 positions...even on the bald-assed prairies there are plenty of landmarks.

Even . and his brother passed this exercise!!!!!

Hell, save even more time and just teach them the GPS why bother with groundspeed checks at all

[AuxBatOn]

Hell, save even more time and just teach them the GPS why bother with groundspeed checks at all

Sure then they fly for some company, VFR, use the GPS for everything, one day, on a long leg, the GPS craps out. Turns out the headwind is stronger than anticipated, buddy runs out of fuel 10 minutes from destination. I personally like learning skills from 1 generation behind what is widely used now. That way, if the latest technology fails, I can rely on more basic skills.

[Old Dog Flying]

GPS is only another tool in the kit of knowledge but unfortunately people tend to use it as a crutch. Learning the basics of VFR navigation is very important but here again there is always another way of doing things. The system that I use is one that was taught for low level nav by the airforce many moons ago...and it works very well.

[Invertago]

Sure then they fly for some company, VFR, use the GPS for everything, one day, on a long leg, the GPS craps out. Turns out the headwind is stronger than anticipated, buddy runs out of fuel 10 minutes from destination. I personally like learning skills from 1 generation behind what is widely used now. That way, if the latest technology fails, I can rely on more basic skills.

To clarify, I was being sarcastic hence the Personally I teach ground speed as well as divide the leg up in 1/4 1/2 markings etc after they are proficient with map and compass nav, they get the GPS. Learn to use every tool at your disposal. The GPS is more a crutch for most. All it takes is for the US to shut it down for a few hours and we'd have GA planes lost all over the world.

[NeverBlue]

...this means sarcastic?

...what does this mean?




Honestly, I thought the same...thanks for clarifying Invertago

[Invertago]

...what does this mean?
Honestly, I thought the same...thanks for clarifying Invertago

means I'm crazy

means "You only pay $x and still require a training bond?"

means "Ha, thanks for the PPC and no bond suckers!"

is the results of arguing on the internets

is showing off your new whitening tooth paste

Can anyone give me a good meaning of this?

[Red Seven]

Red, It seems that no one fully answered your first question.

In real life they're never going to tell you the time taken for the trip. That's what you always want to know. Distance is easy, get your ruler. For groundspeed, just find your calibrated airspeed, correct for wind, and voila, you have a groundspeed. Go use that formula from post 2 and your set.

Tired of the ground...
I think maybe there is something here I didn't think of and I need to spend some time on. Normally I check my groundspeed by marking off a particular spot past SHP such as a 10 mile mark. I check my time at SHP and at 10 mile mark and the difference leaves me with time and distance which makes it very easy with the E6B to check my groundspeed. What was confusing me was that the question in the FGU workbook which seemed to be giving me only distance and no way to calculate time. What you just mentioned makes me remember the back of the E6B where with Wind Direction, Velocity and True Course I can come up with my Groundspeed and Wind Correction Angle. I will spend some time on this until I am totally clear. Is this what you were suggesting?

As for 767,
I'm not sure what your problem is but if this is your normal attitude I'm glad you're not my instructor. Maybe I'm just taking it out of context because on the internet it's hard to tell someone who just sounds like an ass from someone who really is one. They call us students for a reason. We're still learning. In fact I can tell you that one of the greatest attractions flying has for me is that I will never have to say "Ok, I know all there is to know". I'm nearly fifty, own two business and I'm considered a descent and intelligent person by all who know me. I came on here to ask for constructive help in my frustration and have been VERY pleased at the response overall. It has helped me. As an instructor I would expect you to contribute the same kind of constructive help or otherwise to stay on the apron. Again, if I've taken this out of context feel free to straighten me out and I apologize in advance.

Thanks again for the guidance everyone and if you have more constructive thoughts keep 'em coming and thanks in advance.

[tired of the ground]

What you just mentioned makes me remember the back of the E6B where with Wind Direction, Velocity and True Course I can come up with my Groundspeed and Wind Correction Angle. I will spend some time on this until I am totally clear. Is this what you were suggesting?

Yep, you're right on the money. Do the dot thing, rotating and sliding on the back of your E6B to find your groundspeed. What you propose from the SHP is a CHECK to be sure that your calculated groundspeed is in the ballpark from your actual groundspeed. You'll figure it out quick.

Anyone who is more interested in the paperwork than the actual real life application of the skill should be avoided like the plague. The theory is important, but actually being able to do it is more important.

[Tango01]

Red:

Not to worry about any bad comments people make. For the most part, we are all a bunch of good guys and girls here, plus like you said, you never know what people truly mean cause we type things (no tone, no expressions, nothing!)

As for your questions, keep them up. We learn by making mistakes and seeking information. You say you are a student pilot and you are learning. Well, let me tell you something. The learning process is ongoing and never ends! We are ALWAYS students in the cockpit, no matter who we are. Keep that in mind and you'll stay safe.

Cheers

T01

[767]

As for 767,
I'm not sure what your problem is but if this is your normal attitude I'm glad you're not my instructor. Maybe I'm just taking it out of context because on the internet it's hard to tell someone who just sounds like an ass from someone who really is one.

I do not force people to become my students. Whoever wants to fly with me can do so, and whoever doesnt want to fly with me, they dont have to. If you like to call me an ass, i dont have a problem with that. Its my way of teaching, if it suites you or not, dont fly with me if it doesnt suit you. If you want to know how many students i have and how many have left me, i can pm you if you want.

What got my attention in your post is you said "YOU have been quite thoroughly milked", and then your asking, how to calculate time/distance/speed, and then your telling me that you have 1 hour of solo x-country remaining and then its done... well, my question is, what have you been doing on your previous cross countries, and that too when you were solo? Were you not supposed to be doing T/D/S while enroute? Suppose you go up and finish the last hour of your solo x-country, and then you come back and still cant calculate T/D/S.. then how will you achieve the aim of the exercise? Im not gonna type the "aim" of ex 23, but based on what you said, it seems you didnt achieve some of that aim, hence your money was wasted. If i offer an opinion (that i believe can save you $$$$), it doesnt mean I will always be right. Anyways, its a waste of time going on about this.... next,

They call us students for a reason. We're still learning.

Your called a student because you are learning, i 100% AGREE. But that doesnt mean that you can take how ever long you want to learn something.... the sooner you learn, the more time you have to learn even more.... otherwise your just piling up everything, and thats why some students have confusions and misconceptions.... go one step at a time, without wasting any time, because there is more to learn after you learn one thing. YOU and I will never know each and every single thing...

In fact I can tell you that one of the greatest attractions flying has for me is that I will never have to say "Ok, I know all there is to know".

Absolutely correct. Now just because someone has a different opinion, it doesnt mean that they know everything..

I'm nearly fifty, own two business and I'm considered a descent and intelligent person by all who know me.

Well, i respect you for your hard work.

I came on here to ask for constructive help in my frustration and have been VERY pleased at the response overall. It has helped me.

Well im glad it has. But, one thing you will realize is that everyone has their own methods of expressing their opinion. There is no " i know everything and you dont".

As an instructor I would expect you to contribute the same kind of constructive help or otherwise to stay on the apron. Again, if I've taken this out of context feel free to straighten me out and I apologize in advance.

Well, first of all, no need to aplogize. I contributed what i could. If you agree with it then its great, and if you dont agree with it, that is also great... you dont need to tell me to stay on the apron, thats kind of offensive. Do you want me to call you an "ASS" becuase you cant do T/D/S?? i wonder if you would appreciate it.

Thanks again for the guidance everyone and if you have more constructive thoughts keep 'em coming and thanks in advance.

I wish i could, but i dont feel like doing it anymore. I wish you best of luck.

[Red Seven]

What you just mentioned makes me remember the back of the E6B where with Wind Direction, Velocity and True Course I can come up with my Groundspeed and Wind Correction Angle. I will spend some time on this until I am totally clear. Is this what you were suggesting?

Yep, you're right on the money. Do the dot thing, rotating and sliding on the back of your E6B to find your groundspeed. What you propose from the SHP is a CHECK to be sure that your calculated groundspeed is in the ballpark from your actual groundspeed. You'll figure it out quick.

Anyone who is more interested in the paperwork than the actual real life application of the skill should be avoided like the plague. The theory is important, but actually being able to do it is more important.

Excellent! I just found a similar question and worked through it no problem. It turns out that the confusion was that I am being asked for my "Estimated Groundspeed" rather than my "Actual Groundspeed". Duh. Thanks.

767: My apologies. I'm sure your intent is good and your skills are strong both flying and teaching. I was in the midst of frustration and I guess I didn't explain myself well. It was more an issue of understanding the question as opposed to having the skill. I have flown cross country dual twice and solo twice and I'm quite comfortable with doing so assuming reasonable weather etc. I did my flight plans fine (both my estimated groundspeed and enroute checks included). I've passed my flight test and I believe I did well. What I'm finding a little challenging is that the knowledge requirement for the written are quite vague. I know this is to get you to learn as thoroughly as possible rather than just do the minimums and so I'll try to spend less time complaining and more time studying. If I come to a roadblock which is what happened, then I know where there are some great aviators that I can depend on for assistance -AvCanada forums!

A Genuine thanks again for all the support and assistance.