PA-31-350

[touch&go]

Hey all - I have a few questions for you navajo guys out there. I have 200hrs in the right seat, and going for my PPC. With that much time as F/O, I have flown with different people with different habits and views on various stages of flight. Ofcourse, everyone has their own little tweaks and procedures they make along the way. So let me know what you think of the following;

How do you like to stage cool. 2mp every 2min (or 1 and 1), or do you use other specific settings.

On landing, props full fine, or use cruise settings?

Our company uses a brutal weight and balance form. Have any of you set up a standard weight and balance sheet(expect for the necessary calculations for fuel weight and such) for different configs?

I know I have a few more, but i can't seem to remember them....

And if you find yourself bored right now with some extra time on your hands, do you have any other other handy quirks or personal preferences?

Thanks to all who choose to respond.

[Ogee]

Yes, I use 2 for every 2 down to 20 inches and then whatever it takes. That gives you ten minutes assuming you started at 30".

Props always fine. You're never going to go from landing config to cruise on a go around.

If you're doing a PPC ride, there's that bit about starting one engine, selecting gear down to see if you got a pump on that side, then shutting down and doing the same thing on the other. You'd have to be cracked to do it in real operations, but that's what some checklists say. Must have been written by battery or starter overhaul salesmen. In the real world, you can check it at shutdown. Every two shutdowns, you get a check on both.

There is some kind of a whizwheel thingy with Navaho's for weight and balance, but you just end up with something called an index number and no paperwork for the in between. For the survey work I was doing, I used a laptop with an Excel spreadsheet and those clicky things to make minor adjustments and a little display that said OK or Overweight or CG Out, then made the appropriate entry in the OFP.

Good luck on the ride.

[Steve Baker]

Touch and go,
To start, who is doing your PPC? Will it be a TC inspector or a CCP? Not that it really matters, you have only one correct response to most questions on a ride. Follow the published SOP. I remember one of my first rides in the Chieftain, I kept the mixture leaned in the descent to keep the EGTs up and aid in a gradual cooling. Boy did I ever get it from the worst TC inspector it has ever been my sorrow to meet. On the line I would always leave the props at cruise RPM for landing and only advance them if a go-around was started, explaining that to TC might be rough, a CCP who is familiar with the aircraft would have no problem.

As to cooling, we always used 2" every 2 minutes. I don't know if that is less effective than 1" per minute but, it halves the work load. It shouldn't be much of an issue on a ride as you will be at training power for most of the ride.

Your weight and balance must follow the forms in use by your company.

It is something of a shame that small operators on equipment such as a Navajo have to publish SOPs and follow them so rigidly but, that is the way it is. The best course of action after you get some more experience is to try and update the SOP so that it reflects how your company is really operating the aircraft. Work on having a new weight and balance system approved. All of this is for well after your ride.

Good luck, relax and just fly it like a normal flight and you'll be fine.

If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask.

[Cat Driver]

On landing, props full fine, or use cruise settings?

Props stay in cruise RPM during the approach and are advanced to full fine when the throttles are closed for the landing.

Why anyone would descend with the props in full fine is beyond my ability to comprehend.

If you need to do a go around and you can not remember to increase your prop RPM you should not be flying the airplane.

['79K20driver]

Props stay in cruise RPM during the approach and are advanced to full fine when the throttles are closed for the landing.

Yes, agreed, ...nothing like going along at your MDA with the props senselessly screaming at max rpm!

[trey kule]

Let me see.

First...there is a limitation on the EGT in descent...a minimum. it is in the POH, so take a few minutes and read it carefully. If you do what the POH says, you simply can pull out the book at the end of the ride and have a nice chat with the examiner.

Now as to other procedures such as power reductions...I have to ask..why are you asking here? Your company should be giving you training and they will tell you how they want it done. If it says different in the POH, then that is the time to question them.

As to the props on landing..Generally as . says, but I think you might find some Navajo POH's talking about setting them to climb RPM (not full fine), before starting the approach. Check

I have seen some really terrible Navajo pilots who claimed to know everything about the machines, and some new hires who claimed experience on type and then did not know the first thing about such tings as EGT limits on climb, cruise, and descent, the procedures for proper cool down prior to shutdown, or how to properly use the heating system...it has limitations on it, and the faliure to follow them is very expensive.

Despite my giving advice, you really should be getting the answers to your questions during the company training....

[Airtids]

First...there is a limitation on the EGT in descent...a minimum. it is in the POH, so take a few minutes and read it carefully. If you do what the POH says, you simply can pull out the book at the end of the ride and have a nice chat with the examiner.

Too right. 1350 F. I cool at 2" every 2 minutes as a MAX (you can cool more slowly, but generally no faster).

Props stay in cruise RPM during the approach and are advanced to full fine when the throttles are closed for the landing.

I imagine you must be considering 2400, or even METO as a cruise setting?
Page 4-16 of the POH states "Set prop controls to 2400RPM". I find too many pilots do this too early and indeed the noise is too much for too long. No need to go to full fine unless in the case of a miss or upon landing, and even then METO may be sufficient.

Wt and Bal was answered. Use your company approved forms until you can rally to get them changed.

I find 20-22" at 2400 rpm with 15 flap and gear down flies a nice, stable approach at 120-130KIAS. Set the power, control speed and descent with flap.

From full forward, spin the trim wheel 4 turns aft before t/o.

Minimum 3 minutes cool down from touchdown to ICO.

Use the autopilot as much as you can, even fly coupled approaches whenever able. You may not think you need it (and none of us do ), but believe me, when the time comes when you're busy and the conditions are poor, you'll be happy you know how to work the a/p. Also, as you fly bigger, more complex aircraft, it's all a/p.

If you turn the wiper switch all the way to the 'park' position it puts the wiper parallell to the airflow. Took me 4 years before a way junior pilot filled me in on that one !

you really should be getting the answers to your questions during the company training

Agreed.

The Chieftain's a pussycat. Have fun.

Tids

[rigpiggy]

No partial power takeoffs, prohibited by SB "i forget the #" due to a 2 stage metering valve that actuates during the last bit of throttle travel.

[touch&go]

The POH for the 350 suggests props go to 2400RPM for landing. The company I used to fly with did that as well, which worked fine. The company I'm at now thinks we should keep them at cruise (22) for landing.

I assume the props should be brought up in case of an overshoot situation, right. Is that the only real reason? IS it a preference thing or is there method behind madness

[touch&go]

Oh and I'm asking on here because the company I'm with is small (4 others) and I wanted to hear other thoughts

[Cat Driver]

I assume the props should be brought up in case of an overshoot situation, right.

Should you decide to over shoot you move the prop levers to climb RPM and then move the throttles to climb power.

Is that the only real reason? IS it a preference thing or is there method behind madness

How much power do you require to maintain a steady descent rate for the landing?

Is the power required less than cruise power?

When you increase RPM you are increasing piston travel thus you are creating more friction which means the engine is wearing its self out for no good reason.

I could go on and on but the above should point you in the right direction to decide what to do.

[Wburns]

No partial power takeoffs, prohibited by SB "i forget the #" due to a 2 stage metering valve that actuates during the last bit of throttle travel.

Does anyone have a reference for this??? ie. the actual SB number? I'd like to use it to back up how i already feel about operating these engines to my CP and co-workers.

[Ogee]

Just to clarify on the props to fine business. I don't do that on the descent. I do it at the GUMP check which is usually on short final and with the MP so low that it doesn't really affect the RPM anyway. And then they're there for the go around if needed. If I need to go into cruise on short final, I can always bring them back when the noise gets noticeable.

[rigpiggy]

Can't find my pa31 books, but this is from lycoming's site

3 a. Part throttle takeoffs should be avoided. The fuel injector metering jet is a two-hole unit, which is interconnected with the throttle. The secondary jet is fully opened only at full-throttle conditions. The richer fuel flow supplements engine cooling and deters engine damaging detonation.

Climb should be accomplished with engine cooling in mind. Cowl flaps should always be open for climb. A higher than normal climb speed of 140 MPH is recommended to aid cooling. Maximum normal operating power of 2400 RPM, 40" Hg manifold pressure with partial leaning, in accordance with the POH, is permissible where terrain or conditions permit. A conservative climb power setting of 2400 RPM, 35" Hg manifold pressure is also recommended while maintaining cylinder head temperature as cool as 400˚ F by manual leaning. For maximum engine service life, an exhaust gas temperature of 1,400˚ F should not be exceeded.

[flyinthebug]

All good information above.

I agree with Ogee and pretty much do the same thing on the -350. The mp is low enough that pushing the props full fine isnt even felt or heard. Its a good idea to get in this mindset. As much as I respect Cat, I would suggest that if you have to go around for whatever reason..having the props already set is one less thing to worry about during an already "busy time" upfront. Thats why props should always go full fine on short final (GUMPS check), where it wont make any noise change, nor affect pitch in any way..and then your ready to go around if/when needed.

FYI for your ride..One thing I was asked by a TC inspector on my 1st PA31-350 ride was to explain the difference between the duke and calico flap systems on the pa31 and their different limitations etc. To this day I thought it was a waste of time and useless information..Still, it was a question asked of me on the ground.

Good luck on your ride
Fly safe all, Cheers

[rum-runner]

All good information above.


FYI for your ride..One thing I was asked by a TC inspector on my 1st PA31-350 ride was to explain the difference between the duke and calico flap systems on the pa31 and their different limitations etc. To this day I thought it was a waste of time and useless information..Still, it was a question asked of me on the ground.

Good luck on your ride
Fly safe all, Cheers

Holy fak..I have never heard of those terms. Care to explain

[Cat Driver]

As much as I respect Cat, I would suggest that if you have to go around for whatever reason..having the props already set is one less thing to worry about during an already "busy time" upfront.

Having been taught to leave the props in cruise RPM from my first exposure to constant speed props I have never had a problem doing a go around because the props were not at climb power, nor have any of my students.

A go around is or at least should be just another change of flight attitude and a corresponding change of power.

If the go around comes as such a sudden surprise that you " get busy " enough to not remember how to select climb power you are flying behind the airplane or have been day dreaming.

Pilots can " get busy " when they have an engine failure especially close to the ground....but you have been trained to follow a set procedure during the engine shut down which contains several more steps than a simple go around during a landing approach.

When ever I had a pilot being given a check ride or doing training on a multi engine airplane that reacted to quickly during a simulated engine failure in the climb with the airplane clean I calmly said " I have control " and then did a simple demonstration of inertia to show the student that you should never react without knowing WTF was really going on.

Even with something as low performance as the PBY the inertia demo is quite interesting.

I told them to count to ten after the power loss and do nothing except watch the airspeed and note the speed decay during the count to ten....

The speed decay was always two or three knots during the ten count maintaining the climbing attitude.

The lesson I was teaching was never do something stupid fast....

So leaving the props at cruise RPM during the approach is all about how you were taught and never letting the airplane out think you.

[flyinthebug]

Good reply Cat, Thanks.
I will conceed that I did alot of SPIFR early in my career and I did on occasion find myself "behind the plane". It did give me one less thing to worry about when I was shooting an approach to mins etc etc.
In a two crew environment there is plenty of time to push the props forward in almost any senario. I do agree with your 10 sec assessment Cat. Thats a good and innovative way of teaching.
Sometimes on the NDBs up north we would find ourselves poppin out all over the place and props went forward to help slow down and lose altitude. In most cases though I guess cruise setting on final is fine.

Fly safe all.

[Ogee]

All good information above.


FYI for your ride..One thing I was asked by a TC inspector on my 1st PA31-350 ride was to explain the difference between the duke and calico flap systems on the pa31 and their different limitations etc. To this day I thought it was a waste of time and useless information..Still, it was a question asked of me on the ground.

Good luck on your ride
Fly safe all, Cheers

Holy fak..I have never heard of those terms. Care to explain

I think the original flap system on Hos was the Duke system. There was some problem with asymetric flap due to some problem with the flex cable or the way limit switches worked or something like that. They determined that the maximum flap deflection from which you could still maintain level wings with aileron was 25 degrees, so an AD for Dukes came out that required some sort of a stop on the flap track and a placard inside saying flap travel was limited to 25 degrees. Then another system either was STC'd or came out as original on later Hos which by design eliminated the asymetric flap problem and they could then go back to 40 flaps. There was kind of a costly AD or AD's connected to the Dukes involving the flap gearbox on one and the flex drive on the other.

I think the other system is called Coleco or something like that.

[flyinthebug]

Shit, sorry rum-. I missed your question. Ogee did a reasonable job of explaining it. Far better then I could have given anymore. I was sure the duke system was replaced by the "calico" system but I could be mistaken. It was infact due to three consecutive asymetric flap accidents that led Piper to make the change. I believe it was a limiting micro-switch in the left wing flap that was the culprit. Duke systems were indeed limited to 25 degrees travel (normal 40) as that was determined to be the limit the aircraft could maintain level flight with full deflection of the controls and an asymetric flap problem. The STC was for the limiter on the duke systems.

Fly safe all.

[rum-runner]

Ok

Shit, sorry rum-. I missed your question. Ogee did a reasonable job of explaining it. Far better then I could have given anymore. I was sure the duke system was replaced by the "calico" system but I could be mistaken. It was infact due to three consecutive asymetric flap accidents that led Piper to make the change. I believe it was a limiting micro-switch in the left wing flap that was the culprit. Duke systems were indeed limited to 25 degrees travel (normal 40) as that was determined to be the limit the aircraft could maintain level flight with full deflection of the controls and an asymetric flap problem. The STC was for the limiter on the duke systems.

Fly safe all.

Ok..so I did know about the 25/40 flap issue. Just didnt know the names of the components, or manufacturer of the parts.

TMI - IMHO

[trey kule]

Just want to add a bit to the flap discussion. The technical explanations are suffiecient but it should be noted, and understood by any Navajo pilot that the procedures in the event of a split flap situation are different. The change is systems came about during about 1979-80 models just after the time they cleaned up the annunceator panels properly and was done as a result of the split flap problems the aircraft was having.

I sound like a broken record on these threads, but just because you have hopped into a navajo, if you suddenly find a different systems, like the flaps in one, you should immediately go to the POH and see what the operational differences are.
Personally, while the old system is apparently not as reliable as the newer system, I prefer the older system.

[Ogee]

Yes, the procedure is a bit complicated, given that you're going to have your hands full staying wings level. I flew one with Dukes last year. You have to put them down in small increments. I think the problem occurs in transit, where one stops and the other keeps going. I don't think its an issue with let loose once they are down.

Anyways, any plane can have split flap, I suppose. Probably more of an issue with Hos. If I recall, the Calicos do have 40 available, and the flap switch has those intermediate settings like the newer Cessnas.

[trey kule]

I am not exactly sure why the procedure for normal operations is complicated. I was referring to the differences in procedure when one encounters a split flap situation. If a pilot does not know that, or worse, uses the incorrect procedure for that system, what should be a rather routine recovery from an abnomal mechanical problem could, in fact , be made worse.

Pilots, after getting initial training, and their ride, unless they keep at studying, soon forget the proper procedures for simple abnormal situations. Couple that with different systems in the same type of aircraft with different procedures, and unless a pilot is on top of the game, it is to easy to simply hop from one to the other without taking the trouble to learn the differences. As long as things go as planned their will not be a problem

I hear many pilots talk of the PA 31 series as pussycats..Yes they are...as long as everything is working well and the weather is fine. Combine some bad enviromental conditions, a minor problem (like split flaps), a pilot who has the wrong procedure in their brain....and that litle pussycat can turn into a snarly tiger in a heartbeat....
Search the CADORS if you dont wish to take my word for it.................To many pilots flying around in them trusting to luck instead of skil, experience, and knowledge.....and again...that will work as long as everything goes as planned.

In any event, I did not mean to hijack this thread, but the PA 31's are fine aircraft....when they hit the ground it is almost always the result of poor maintenance (and pilots who will fly them that way), or poor pilots. Something to keep in mind for all those new ho drivers who think its a pussycat and they have it nailed.