Flying hungover or not waiting the manditory 8 hours after.

[ryerye]

I dont drink but I have noticed over the years that many pilots flying in the bush do. Over the years i have seen many pilots flying the next day after drinking, and not just a few drinks but after a long night of drinking. Ex. last year I showed up for a flight in the morning to witness a fellow pilot loading an aircraft with a forklift while still drunk. About 4 hours after that watched this pilot climb into the company otter and go flying. As a coworker and fellow pilot should I blow the horn on this type of behaviour? or what should be my course of action?

[Just another canuck]

I'll first say I've also witnessed this type of behaviour in the few years I've spent in this industry. For some reason, it's accepted... why?, well I don't really know. But it is a potentially very dangerous situation and as far as I'm concerned, completely unacceptable. That said, I've done my share of foolish things... I've never entered an airplane drunk, but still.

Anyway, this is a tough situation to tackle... I mean, what if it's your boss or friend... something like that. I think the best thing to do is ask this employee/s out for a coffee and politely and calmly explain the situation and how you feel about. The best case scenario is they listen and change their ways. If they continue, another stern warning may be granted, but after that something has to be done about it... in my opinion.

Another thing is it depends on how serious the alcoholism is... are they drunk every night, showing up trashed every morning... if this is the case, you may need to act fast or take matters to a higher level faster.

Anyway, if the first option doesn't work, then maybe go to a senior pilot... someone who does not have the authority to fire them or punish them, but whose influence may be a little greater. Be careful who you choose. If the problem persists, you've done everything you can to help this person.

Keep in mind, alcoholism is a disease and these people need treatment. And in Canada, if you admit to a problem and get help, you will keep you job when you are better.

It all depends on the exact case that is happening. Each needs to be approached differently and carefully. But one thing is for sure... if you feel safety is an issue, then something MUST be done.

There are probably guys on this website who have battled with this in the past and may share their experience... after all, it nothing to be ashamed of and that's probably one of the first things to tell someone if they do indeed have a problem.

[Oleo 4]

In my opinion, your approach should be:

Talk to the person, if that doesn't work take the battery out of his airplane!!!
Let him cool down/sobber up/ whatever - give him the reality now that you will take it to a higher level next!
Talk to your senior base pilot/safety officer/ chief pilot if the trend continues


However be very certain that this person is drunk - we have all done the 8 bottle to throttle deal and some of us when we weren't 100% in the mornings got the job done safely, doesn't mean that you should blow that whistle when he shows up not 100% because he is suffering from a cold either!

Tread carefully!

[jamesbay]

Well.....discretion is one thing but good luck with ratting out your fellow pilot and see how far you get in this industry. Not condoning anything here but as far back as I can remember, this has always been, thats a deeply rooted grain your going against there. If it bothers you, "you" might want to move along.

[Just another canuck]

Well.....discretion is one thing but good luck with ratting out your fellow pilot and see how far you get in this industry. Not condoning anything here but as far back as I can remember, this has always been, thats a deeply rooted grain your going against there. If it bothers you, "you" might want to move along.

That might be the most irresponsible thing I have ever read on this site. You think it better that ryerye "move along" and allow this obviously unsafe practice to continue. You don't condone it, but you think a person should turn a blind eye. You are saying you would rather not say anything for fear of jeopardizing your career. Ryerye, that won't happen... understand that. And what would you do when said drunk pilot piles it in and kills people? Ryerye, ignore jamesbay's post.

And furthermore jamesbay, what would you do if you know a pilot was consistently spinning or rolling the King Air? or exceeding flight limitations because they wanna get home faster? or them many other things that would require a normal/responsible employee to intervene? When DO you draw line? What isn't acceptable? Ugh...

[altiplano]

Drinking or not, I usually feel like shit in the morning but I would never go flying pissed.

If someone I knew showed up for a shift with anything more than a need for a Tylenol and a cup of coffee I wouldn't let them fly - by all means necessary - I wouldn't want to see a buddy screw up there career for a momentary lack of judgment. You aren't doing them or this industry any favours by letting that type of behaviour continue - it's not about being a rat or not, it's about being a man and standing up to it.

That said I have encountered more than a few people in this business who are against drinking all together and seem to think that any amount of liquor at anytime is too much - If you are one of these nancy-types then @#$! off and grow a set... people drink, people feel like shit, people feel better, get over it...

[Donald]

Drinking or not, I usually feel like shit in the morning but I would never go flying pissed.

There's also alot of people who take their own car to the bar and back, yet "never drive drunk".

That said I have encountered more than a few people in this business who are against drinking all together and seem to think that any amount of liquor at anytime is too much - If you are one of these nancy-types then @#$! off and grow a set... people drink, people feel like shit, people feel better, get over it...

It can be a tough lesson, especially for young guys/gals at their first job, without a good role model or CP. But if you stink when you show up at 6am, you should've called in sick. All it would take is a TC guy to stick their head in the cockpit, or have an RCMP passenger, then what? You lost your job, or have criminal charges for what? To prove you "have a set"?

[jamesbay]

Whose being irresponsible there canuck? I think the key word I used was "discretion", do you mean to say you have never had a few beers after a long day and got up early to go to work? Oh No.....The otter pilot had some beer last night! I'm telling...WaaaWaaaWaaaa.

[ryerye]

I'm not talking a few beers here I'm talking drunk at 8am and flying at noon in this case, but in many cases even pissed drunk at 3am and flying at 8am.........not cool or smart. Bush pilot or not your still a commercial pilot and suppose to be a professional i'm talking about the guys who are pushing the envelope just because they are used to being hungover. That doesnt mean you should be flying in that condition!

[Just another canuck]

Whose being irresponsible there canuck? I think the key word I used was "discretion", do you mean to say you have never had a few beers after a long day and got up early to go to work? Oh No.....The otter pilot had some beer last night! I'm telling...WaaaWaaaWaaaa.

First of all, this was ryerye's first post. Up until now, he's had no interest, or at least no reason to seek the advice of us avacanadians... that tells you it's for real. It's a real problem and he needs help dealing with it. Then you come on here and say good luck ratting your co-workers out... why don't you move on. Why hell should he have to move on? He's not the one with the problem. If he wanted to he could just go present the issue to his authority, but he chose to come on here and look for a more appropriate and possibly discrete way of doing it. We're trying to help him with that.

The previous posts did say not to "rat him out"... and by the way, ratting someone out would be telling the boss an co-worker shows up late all the time or doesn't fill in his OFP's. This is helping someone. You are obligated to do something about it. If this isn't the right time to step in, when is? after the crash?

And yes, I've had a few beers the night before... I've pushed the 8 hour rule pretty hard at times, but to be completely honest that only happened a couple times and I've never done anything like that again. Like altiplano said, if you feel like shit, whether it be from booze, food or the flu, don't go flying. If you are required to fly in the morning, be a responsible professional that you're supposed to be and show up competent and able to perform your duties.

Anyway, ryerye was not talking about a few beers here... it sounds like a REAL problem that NEEDS to be dealt with. Yes, use your discretion... I said that as well. Each situation/scenario needs to be dealt with differently and use caution.

If you really can not see that this is a problem, then sir, you need a lesson yourself. And BTW, you're posts make you sound completely ridiculous. Just thought I'd let you know what everyone else is thinking.

[jamesbay]

Oh, after your final statement there canuck I just feel crushed, thank you for your meaningful life lesson.......

[Cat Driver]

I'm not talking a few beers here I'm talking drunk at 8am and flying at noon in this case, but in many cases even pissed drunk at 3am and flying at 8am........

.not cool or smart.

No it is both illegal and very high risk behavior.

Does anyone else in your company know this is going on ryerye?

[ettw]

Firstly, I'll fess up right now, I don't drink....anymore. I did and it was becoming a problem. But that's a decision that an individual has to make. No one can make if for them, at least not with a reasonable rate of success of staying on the wagon anyways.

I have seen this sort of thing over the years and I deal with it the same way: I talk directly to the person involved. I think that's the decent thing to do. Don't jump over them and not give them the chance to redeem themselves. This could be a CTM (Career Terminating Manuever) for them.

If you really think this is a problem for this individual and don't feel like they're seeing the light, talk to a base pilot or union rep etc. Someone who will side with the individual but still holds some clout in the organization. If you go right to the CP, you're dealing with management and not all CPs will be understanding.

If all else fails, CP it is. At least at that point you have taken the reasonable and understanding approach.

Of course if this person is REALLY drunk and is trying to go flying, take the same approach but just in a much shorter timeline, like step 1-3 in 2 minutes!

Cheers,

ETTW

[just curious]

Don't sugar-coat it. Tell them to pull their head out of their ass. Failing that, via direct to the CP. Which is gonna be worse... thundering in, and discovering the insurance is valid due to a violation of a pretty easily understood rule? Or hurting someone's feelings?

If TC intercepted them first, the conversation wouldn't be feeling-hurting... it would be career-ending.

[username:]

8 hour rule

Hmm... I always thought the rule was; 8 inches bottle to throttle

Well, I better change that!

[altiplano]

-

[Oleo 4]

Well as you can see Ryerye this is a touchy subject!!!

Whatever you decide I wish you luck as its not easy to do the right thing at times, you know what that is and you certainly don't need this banter back and forth to confirm you know what to do!

Some might say its wrong to turn in a collegue, but I'd turn a family member in just as quick if that was the only way to help them and protect innocent lives!

Good luck to you!

[phillyfan]

2 things here.

- The rule is 8hrs, but there is also another rule for exsessive consumption.

- If your ordering a couple double rye and cokes at last call. Watch out for the guy who's been drinking Ginger Ale all night.

I really do believe there is an "old school" mentality when it comes to this kind of thing. If you do choose to "Rat out" the guy. Watch out, because the guy you are reporting him to has almost certainly, drank with him on one of these nights in the past.

For those that do bend the rule. All it takes is one bent airplane, injured pax, or report to the cops from a pax who smells booze on you and your life is gonna take a really shitty turn.

[Just another canuck]

For those that do bend the rule. All it takes is one bent airplane, injured pax, or report to the cops from a pax who smells booze on you and your life is gonna take a really shitty turn.

I have a couple examples regarding this: A pilot I know was seen drinking at the bar. A passenger then went to board his plane the following day. This passenger reported it to the authorities and there was an investigation. The only thing that saved him was it was a single-pilot machine and he was the FO... his boss liked him and bailed him out... this time.

And I know of a pilot who lost his job flying for an NWO operator because he was seen in the bar... again by a passenger, the night before his flight. This pilot only had one or two drinks... he didn't exceed the 8 hour rule. But he tarnished the reputation of his operator. I believe, in this case, the punishment did not fit the crime, but still.

The point is you are risking your job and in the long run, your career. You are taking a big chance in some cases... and for what, a few drinks. Are these beer really that important to you? Do you really NEED them? If you really do like that wind down beer or drink after work, do it in moderation and in the privacy of your own home or elsewhere private between friends and people you can trust.

[Steve Baker]

No one likes to be a rat. No one wants to hurt a colleagues career. Something to keep in mind though are my kids. Kid? That's right, my kids who might be passengers on this guys plane. You're co-workers kids who will be keeping them company in the line up for EI when you're customers find out about drunken pilots and you go out of business.

I hate to be a hardass but, when people threaten my livelihood, they threaten my ability to take care of my family, that makes it a little more personal and gives a different perspective on going to the chief pilot.

By all means confront the individual directly but, if you aren't satisfied, don't hesitate to bring it to a higher authority.

[ryerye]

See now Ive had this conversation with many pilots and crews over the years and I usually get the same sort of thing.....Its bad practice, dangerouse ect ect. Thing is that later on during the same summer most of these guys who agree with my views on the whole issue seem to forget as soon as there is a big party that cant be misseed and then they too end up pushing the envelope to some extent. I know everyone knows booze and flying dont mix but the hypocricy in this topic is always there too. Easy enough to see even in this thread a few of you have drinking problems and came on here to defend yourself or even redeem yourself. whatever the case I think this issue in bush flying is as important as sms. We need to rid bush flying of this mentality that drinking is a part of that culture, its not is a sickness! again im not talking about one or two but in my experience its never one or two!

['79K20driver]

We need to rid bush flying of this mentality that drinking is a part of that culture

It's also important to remember this problem exists not only in bush flying but in all other areas of flying albeit to a lesser extent. You're right though, it is something that should be addressed. I think you are on the right track. Get talking about it within your company. Talk to your co-workers. Do not necessarily start pointing fingers (unless you feel the problem is an immediate safety concern) but just get the subject of excessive drinking out there. If you can get people talking about it, and thinking about it, you just might be well on your way to changing the culture at your company. The bad apples will hopefully be forced to change their ways as they will know that it is being viewed as such unacceptable behavior by their peers.
Cultures at different companies can be so varied and cultures within a single company can vary so much over time. I guess it changes as pilots and other staff come and go. I worked at some companies where drinking was a problem and others where it wasn't at all. I worked for one company where the culture has pretty much done a 180. Drinking was part of it and now its basically non-existent. Getting too many heavy drinkers on your staff at one time is the problem. The culture develops from there. They tend to wise-up when they get outnumbered though.

[Cat Driver]

Easy enough to see even in this thread a few of you have drinking problems and came on here to defend yourself or even redeem yourself.

I can only comment from my own experience, I am an alcoholic and it is my beliefe that drinking and flying or flying with a hangover is a very dangerous practice.

If there are pilots in a company who abuse their drinking habits and fly under the influence they should be warned and if they continue to do it they should be terminated.

[canpilot]

Im studying for the IATRA at the moment and I learned that booze stays in your inner ear for up to 24 hours after consumption. Also, TC reccomends 48 hours bottle to throttle after heavy drinking.

I think its more of a professionalism/ safety issue. My personal policy on the job is NO drinking unless I am off base. If I am on base NO BOOZE! Same goes for rest.. rest time is the time to sleep..nothing else..no partying or whatever ..i need to keep myself fresh for the next day's flight. If something goes awry I want to be 100%. Same goes for being sick!

Would you put your kid, wife, girlfriend, mom, dad or dog on a plane with person X.. or yourself for that matter.. If my answer is no the choice becomes VERY clear. I also apply the same principle to weather..

Just be careful...being a whistle blower might be the right thing to do..but if you are wrong ..or if things aren't recieved the way you like.. be ready for the consequences.. and be prepared to deal with it..no regrets.

[SkyWolfe]

I would also be prepared to suffer the consequences if he crashes and you didn't bother to tell anyone. Then you can keep that on your mind for the rest of your life.

I guess your priorities will help you decide what is right.

Cheers,

Wolfie