NAV AIR

[Premium]

I don't care what way you look at it..... 60 bucks a day, is less than mim wage when you only work 8 hrs a day! At 15 hrs days, that is only $4 an hour. Hopefully the labour board in YVR will be after these guys next.

Already been done partner and if you're not flying then its not considered work. If it takes 1.5 hours to fly to Kelowna and then you sit there for 8 hours and fly home in another 1.5 hours....then the labour board says you are only working for 3 hours....so that comes out to $15/hr @ $60/day. If you don't like it or agree with it then talk to the government about changing their labour laws. I agree the pay for a F/O is terrible but what do you expect. Anybody can click the mic a few times and dial in a few frequencies. It's not hard work, in fact it is so elementary that a 15 year old kid could do the job. It's the experience gained while sitting in that seat that is important.

The people who defend that pay scale are as bad as the guys and girls who are willing to work for nothing in return.

Give me a break you moron....how is working for free and getting paid (even if it is pathetic) comparable.

I haven't heard any suggestions as to what all you self-respecting pilots think a F/O on the Navajo should get paid. Your critisim is not very constructive....how about some solutions? Oh, that would require too much thought

Just out of curiosity, how much money do you think F/O's make at other companies .... like PASCO, CMA, NTair, Airsprint, etc....
If you take a look its not much better than Navair. The advantage of working at Navair is you don't have to sit right seat for 2 or 3 years....like I said before if you're a good pilot with the right attitude you can make Captain between 6 and 12 months.

Exactly. I have self respect and dignity.

Sure you do A-tard. That's why you would pull your balls out of your coveralls so everybody could see your handiwork on a weekly basis. How proffesional was that??? Or how about all the times you showed up late for work....more than anybody else combined?? You are a spoiled little brat pal and anything you say has little or no value. Why don't you tell everybody why you really quite Navair.....was it because being a pilot requires no thought and mental work....it was too easy and boring for you??? Tell everybody here what you really think of pilots....go ahead.
Continue to bring on the comments A-tard and dig yourself a deeper hole....I have a plethora of material to showcase your so-called proffesionalism, self-repect, and dignity.


The fact is...Navair is an excellent place to work and gain experience. When you start out, you start at the bottom of the barell and make terrible money. But things only get better from there. It's the same everywhere. I'd love to hear from some of you regarding your pay as an F/O on your first job.

[b007]

Well tell me what you think an FO on a Navajo should be paid? $16,000?? Are you for real? If you think an Navajo FO should be paid more then that your out to lunch! Might as well get the autopilots fixed! And say forget this whole FO BS. Your entitled to your opinion I just think that your being a little unrealistic with this thing! I still stand behind Nav Air all the way! I’ve worked all kinds of different jobs and pay scales trust me Nav Air isn’t that bad! But I guess when mommy and daddy buy you every thing it’s hard to live with out the luxuries of life! Not to offend any one if you come from money good for you but expecting to get paid a large amount of money as a Navajo FO is ridicules! I’ve lived off of less then $14,000 a year so don’t go telling me that you can’t afford to buy food and pay for rent cause you can! It’s not easy but you can do it!

[b007]

Well said Premium

[wannabatp]

Well tell me what you think an FO on a Navajo should be paid? $16,000?? Are you for real? If you think an Navajo FO should be paid more then that your out to lunch! Might as well get the autopilots fixed! And say forget this whole FO BS. Your entitled to your opinion I just think that your being a little unrealistic with this thing! I still stand behind Nav Air all the way! I’ve worked all kinds of different jobs and pay scales trust me Nav Air isn’t that bad! But I guess when mommy and daddy buy you every thing it’s hard to live with out the luxuries of life! Not to offend any one if you come from money good for you but expecting to get paid a large amount of money as a Navajo FO is ridicules! I’ve lived off of less then $14,000 a year so don’t go telling me that you can’t afford to buy food and pay for rent cause you can! It’s not easy but you can do it!

Where do I start...

So $16000 is unreasonable for a PCC'ed F/O who is ready to work for 10+ hours a day? You do realise thats a shade over $1300/mth...gross? I know guys at the gas station who are pulling down $2400/mth. Are they worth that? It doesn't really matter what their worth, it's what owners are willing to pay to get the work done. Pilots are our own worst enemy. Most of us are surprised that someone is paying us to do what we do. That doesn't mean our work is worthless. It's not even limited to F/O's. I know guys who are flying PIC single engine who are also getting comparable wages. So don't tell me it's simply a matter of a lack of skill or experience.

Maybe you should get the a/p's fixed. Pay your captains a decent wage, grow, get busier, get safer, get larger (ie: real 2 crew) a/c, hire more pilots.

Your right, fix the A/P and forget the f/o thing. F/o's would be better off, and then you wouldn't have to pay them. A/P's don't complain about low pay or poor maintenance. How much would it cost to fix the A/P? If an F/o is replacing an a/p, why not pay him/her that money?

I don't pretend to know all the costs involved in using the a/p versus hiring the f/o. But I'm sure you do, and have figured out that it's cheaper to just fill the seat rather than fix whats wrong. If it weren't, you would have fixed the a/p.

By the way, if they are hiring low time f/o's on the Navajo, how long do they stay there before they become captain? How much is a 2nd or 3rd year f/o making? How many hours in the right seat would qualify someone for captain? Do all f/o's start as 250 hr wonders?

Personally, I would do the f/o thing if I had to, only because I haven't been able to find anything else. In most companies though, that would mean I'd be in the right seat for at 2-3 years, unless there was opportunity for some single engine PIC time somewhere in the company. If I were to do something like that, I'd have to go in with a plan for a second job or some other way to make funds. I dont know when you last lived on $14,000 a year, or where or for how long, but I guarantee you, it won't stretch as far now. Anyway, that's not the point. As a pilot, you ARE worth more than that.

I haven't had to go to the bank of M+D for anything. I'm a low time pilot who's been in the work force for a lot longer than most of the fresh young faces coming out of flight schools, and your darn tootin I'm worth more than $14,000/yr! I know I'm not looking at the 20 year scale at Air Canada (if I ever do...not likely), but as a pilot, I'm definately worth more than a gas jockey or burger chef. Especially as this is a chosen career, not just a job to fill in the time between school and parties.

Just my opinion mind you. I've kept my skills up as best I can, and learned a lot about how this industry works, including what questions to ask of a prospective employer. I'll keep looking until I can find what I can live with.

Anyway, what all this boils down to is this, an honest days pay for an honest days work. Pilots ARE worth more than poverty line wages.

Thanks for putting up with my ramble.



Cheers!

[b007]

Ok wannabatp your sticking to your guns on this one and I don’t think I can change your mine on the subject! But do you really call sitting in a hotel room for 8 hours work? Premium said it best.

"If it takes 1.5 hours to fly to Kelowna and then you sit there for 8 hours and fly home in another 1.5 hours....then the labour board says you are only working for 3 hours....so that comes out to $15/hr @ $60/day. If you don't like it or agree with it then talk to the government about changing their labour laws......The fact is...Navair is an excellent place to work and gain experience. When you start out, you start at the bottom of the barell and make terrible money. But things only get better from there. It's the same everywhere. I'd love to hear from some of you regarding your pay as an F/O on your first job."

Now I really want to know what you expect FO’s on a Navajo to make? Really what do you think is reasonable? I think Nav Air is a great company to get a start and you won’t change my mind on that fact.

[ice ice baby]

If you are not interested in the views Premium and b007 previously mentioned then you might as well stop reading now. Nav Air has in the not so recent past hired 200hr pilots without a ppc. Anyone who does pay for a PPC can avoid regency by going somewhere else. My understanding is they want guys with a positive attitude. FO's usually get to fly every other leg. Another way to look at it is, would you rather spend 2 years on the ramp somewhere, or an extra 2 years flying at the top end of the payscale which will make up for your slightly more than 60 (63?) dollars/day. I believe you start getting paid more after 6 months. Anyone who can justify getting paid for a rest period has some interesting ideas. Atleast in BC employers in any non-unionized environment are not required to pay employees during their coffee breaks, so why should Nav Air.

[canoe]

Premium you ask for constructive solutions, but instead insult me by calling me a moron?? That sounds constructive. Not to get into a pissing match with you, as i don't know as much about navair as you apparently do, but as an F/O i'm still pretty sure you require CPL with a multi so i wouldn't exactly qualify it as a job any 15 year old kid could do. If it was, guys like myself have put forth a lot of time and money in order to obtain a CPL, which they apparently don't need.

Some others on here have suggested that 14400 ain't bad to live on, but to me 1200/month does not even come close to paying the bills: food, lodging, utilities, insurance, loan repayments, etc. Not to mention if you have other activities you're interested in, besides just 'getting by'. For me if i were offered that pay scale, i'd simply walk away. I find it disrespectful to offer someone a sub standard living wage. Hell i almost made that much when i was in Highschool.

I'm not on here to make enemies, and I don't suggest that i have the answers as to what an F/O or capt at any company should be making. I would however suggest that even if you are only flying for 3-4 hrs, it's not like you can go and grab another job inbetween flights for supplemental income, and you shouldn't have to. As no one here has any concrete numbers as to what F/O's are paid, and for how long you have to wait for a raise, this issue came about as a $60/day thing which i think i and every other pilot is worth more. I'd say 1500/month plus mileage, or even a flat 2000/month.

And to some who may suggest that i've lived with a silver spoon in my mouth, or off of mommy and daddy, i'd say that's a little bit arrogant considering we don't even know one another. So don't suggest that i don't know what hard work is b/c that is how i've paid for my education, and found employment, not thru handouts. And no, i'm not accusing anyone else of accepting handouts!! I just know what i'm worth, and it's more than $60/day.

[wannabatp]

I never said NavAir was a bad place to work. If I sounded like I was taking shots at a particular company, then I apologise. I'm sure it's a great place to work and any 200hr pilot would be happy for the opportunity.

My problem is in the mentality that it's ok to pay an F/O a poverty line wage because he/she doesn't do anything but sit there.

If an f/o is needed as part of a crew, then pay him/her as part of the crew, not as a pain-in-the-butt part of the business that has to be endured and/or tolerated because the a/p is on the fritz and it's cheaper to hire someone to sit in the right seat than it is to fix the a/p.

Believe me, if people are happy at NavAir or anywhere else getting paid less than minimum wage, then all power to them. And frankly, at this point in my career, if it were offered to me, I'd be willing to consider it too. But I know, and ALL pilots should know, that we are worth far more than $60/day regardless of their capacity.

If you want a number, I'd say minimum $75/day on duty plus maybe $25-40 per diem for anything over 4 hours from base. So I'm saying $2000-2300/mth or $24000-27600/pa.

I know I may be dreaming, but if your asking me what a reasonable starting wage for a career pilot is, that should be about it.

One other thing to consider here as well. I don't know what the turnover is at the best of times for these smaller charter/sched operators, but I'm sure the turnover is a lot less now. Meaning people hang around a lot longer than they otherwise would if there was a faster hiring process going on at the top. Do companies take this into account when hiring? IE: medical, dental, retirement planning, etc. It seems to me that there are a whole lot of pilots with several thousand hours still flying around in a Navajo that by now (in better times) would be in a wide body somewhere. IF thats the case, then companies should be looking at ways to retain their pilots when the hiring process does start to speed up. Or at least adjust their compensation packages to reflect the fact that pilots may be around the company longer than they otherwise would have.

Maybe I'm out to lunch here. Dunno.

It just seems to me that, in the long run, if you pay your employees a fair, living wage, treat them with respect and dignity, it will pay off in all kinds of ways. Notably safety, customer service and a whole bunch of other productive little areas around the company.

All comments welcome. PM if you prefer.

Cheers!

[b007]

You really think a 250 hour Co-pilot on a Navajo is worth $24,000?!?! If you do then you were feed some lines of horseshit from your career counsellor. We are talking about an entry-level position right? If you think your worth something because you dished out $30,000 for your licence then you’ve got it all wrong! The industry owes you nothing! If you do have time under your belt and really flight experience then yes you should be making some good money! But at 250 hours, you don’t know squat and have little or no experience. It’s great that you wont work for Nav Air cause there are plenty of people that would give there right nut to get on with them! Don’t get me wrong I don’t know any of you and you’re all probably really nice people but to think that an FO on a Navajo with 200-300 hours is experienced and knowledgeable enough to be paid what some Capt in other operations gets paid is a little arrogant in my opinion! If you have a ton of experience then good for you get a good paying job get married and have some babies.

[ice ice baby]

can I give my left nut instead

[wannabatp]

"If it takes 1.5 hours to fly to Kelowna and then you sit there for 8 hours and fly home in another 1.5 hours....then the labour board says you are only working for 3 hours....so that comes out to $15/hr @ $60/day. If you don't like it or agree with it then talk to the government about changing their labour laws."....

It's not just the three hours of flight time, and you know it. How far ahead of time does the crew show up to work? An hour? Maybe 2? Preflight, wx, other paperwork, houskeeping also have to be done I imagine.

What about after they get back? Who washes the plane and cleans the cabin and other assorted jobs. Theres still some paperwork to fill out.

Let's see, thats a return trip. Arrive 1.5 hours before the first departure, finish half hour after first arrival. 1.5+1.5+.5=3.5 hours

2nd departure, lets say you arrive 1 hour before dep, and leave 1 hour after arrival. 1+1.5+1=3.5 hours

Grand total of 7 hours of actual aviation related work.

Plus you get to sit somewhere else for another 6.5 hours doing nothing. A grand total of 13.5 hours for which you are paid the princely sum of $60. Gee, seems to me that works out to around $4.50 an hour. 6.5 hours off duty you say? I can do whatever I want?? Fair enough, the rate then goes up to around $8.600/hr. Still not anywhere near $15/hr. Not to mention the opportunity cost of NOT being able to swing a second job to make more income.

As far as talking to the government goes, somebody would have to complain first. What newly minted pilot would risk their first job to do that? After all, they feel they are 'helping out the company' if they allow themselves to be treated this way.

Again, let me make this clear, I have nothing against any particular companies (especially if they are considering hiring me ), this is simply a bit of a rant at the industry I so want to be a part of.

Cheers!

[b007]

Wannabata please read my last post!

[sudzy]

Wash the planes . And please don't bring up the auto pilot issue. If Navair brought back autopilots...thoes idiots would start to fly into hills again. I also think that a co-pilot should be paid at least 2,300 a month. and it would increase as it should as you gain experience. that way pilots would get paid what they should.

[wannabatp]

Ok, here goes...

Btw, you could read my posts, but I'll assume your tired from a long day of being a PA-31 Captain, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

You really think a 250 hour Co-pilot on a Navajo is worth $24,000?!?!

Yes I do. If he/she wasn't worth it, why hire a co-joe? Fix the A/P!

If you do then you were feed some lines of horseshit from your career counsellor. We are talking about an entry-level position right? If you think your worth something because you dished out $30,000 for your licence then you’ve got it all wrong! The industry owes you nothing!

Maybe I was fed a line. Actually no, I always knew I wanted to be a pilot, part of the reason for that was that I wanted to be around a better class of people. Most are, some aren't, like everything else in life. Spending the money for the training is simply the price of admission, part of paying your dues if you will. Btw, it cost me a heck of a lot more than $30000 to get where I am, and I'm just a little bit shy of 400 hours. I'll agree the industry owes me nothing. I'd like to think that through hard work, commitment, perseverence, self-sacrifice and attitude (not to mention ability) I might actually succeed in getting a carreer going without compromising myself in some way I may regret to myself later.

If you do have time under your belt and really flight experience then yes you should be making some good money! But at 250 hours, you don’t know squat and have little or no experience.

Agreed! I don't know squat, so teach me what I need to know so that I might be better able to serve. Why put me in the poorhouse in the meantime?

It’s great that you wont work for Nav Air cause there are plenty of people that would give there right nut to get on with them!

Frankly, thats part of the problem. Too many people for too few jobs, willing to sell their souls to get ahead. Companies know this and are more than willing to take advantage.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t know any of you and you’re all probably really nice people but to think that an FO on a Navajo with 200-300 hours is experienced and knowledgeable enough to be paid what some Capt in other operations gets paid is a little arrogant in my opinion! If you have a ton of experience then good for you get a good paying job get married and have some babies.

You asked me what I thought a reasonable starting salary would be, and I answered you. I know it's not reality, but I do think it's not unreasonable to make a living wage after getting hired on by a company. I don't know what other Captains have to do with it. It's in EVERYONES best interest to see that every employee has a reasonable wage, especially when that employee is partly responsible for the safety of the pax, crew and a/c. Why is it so hard to see that?? As far as everything else goes, I currently do have a well paying job (approaching six figures) that has nothing to do with aviation. I'm not married and no babies (that I know of). I am open to offers, however.

I know this thread started on a specific company, and again, I have no knowledge of Nav Air directly or their practices. What I object to is YOUR position regarding low time pilots and their worth in this industry. If we all think we're worth more, then we will be worth more. Until then, we have people like you telling us it's ok to work for next to nothing, because, according to you, and people like you, thats what we're worth...next to nothing.

Thats all I have to say about the subject. If you'd like to discuss this some more, feel free to PM me.

Cheers!

[b007]

Ok I don’t think that expecting to make $24,000 a year with 400 hours and little or no IMC experience is reasonable but you do so all the power to you (you’ve got balls I’ll give you that!) Let me know what the CP or OM says when you tell him/her you think you, at 400 hours should be paid more then $14,400 a year! But your not that stupid are you! So you go on about how unfair it is to be paid so little but in the same hand you wouldn’t voice your opinion to the CP or OM would you? You don’t dictate what your worth, supply and demand and right now there’s a lot of low timers out there so really your not worth much are you unless you can offer something that no one else can! I’m not trying to come off as a a-hole, your beliefs are great and it would be wonderful if low timers could get paid more but that’s not going to happen any time soon. Low time pilots are a dime a dozen and that’s the fact. So this notion that you have that you’re worth $24,000 a year is untrue. Now I’m talking about pay here not how you’re treated, that’s a whole other subject! You should be treated as a valuable asset to the team and never belittled of made to fell worthless! But pay wise you’re not worth that much! When you’ve got a couple thousand hours under your belt then yes you should be expecting a good pay. And that all I have to say about that. This is now way off subject so I’ll end saying this Nav Air is a great company and I think if you’ve got the right attitude you can fit in great with the staff their.

[canoe]

b007 i'd have to disagree that you would think people need a couple thousand hours under their belt before they should be paid well!!! I don't know of another profession (i know aviation is to xxxxx, like apples is to oranges) that considers $14000-$16000 an "entry level" salary. I don't think your an a-hole either, but i do think you undervalue your worth, b/c if you are entrusted in operating a machine (even as co-jo) then in my opinion you are worth at least 2000/month which in most professions would still be underpaid!!! However, we're all entitled to our own opinions so happy trails!

[sudzy]

Navair sucks the bone. I dont care what asshole pilot there trys to defend such a shit company. You all live miserable lives and do what you can to make it seem like such a great company. You all put up with shitty management and acept being treated like shit. Go fly your clapped out navajo premium. By the way.......how many engine faliures has your shit company had in the last two years mother fucker.. I rest my case. eat it cause you like it fag.

[Premium]

Go fly your clapped out navajo premium. By the way.......how many engine faliures has your shit company had in the last two years mother fucker.. I rest my case. eat it cause you like it fag.

Proffesional, respectful, mature?? I rest my case.
You are pathetic A-tard. Like I said before, good luck with ATC.

[slick]

A- tard; you speak of professionalism and integrity, yet choose not to exhibit those qualities you so obviously lack by slandering the pilots and management of Nav Air so blatantly.
Nav Air, like any company is as good as you make it. This industry is small, I will see you around.

Good Luck, and God Bless

What would Jesus do?

[Airtids]

Couple of things that (surprisingly) haven't been pointed out here yet: Navair crews their a/c with f/o and not a/p for safety reasons. Anyone who's flown a significant amount of single pilot IFR knows why. Since making this policy change, they have not had 1 wreck. Pretty smart, and says quite a bit about the company culture.

Yes, the planes look like hell, but unless you're putting pax in there, who cares? The maintenance is top-notch, (in fact the Garrett guy there is reknowned for what he can do) and learning how to fly 'Navair Normal' is exactly the kind of experience an f/o needs to become a good captain with Navair, or ANY OTHER COMPANY!! While not ideal as a way to operate on a daily basis, learning to get by with the minimum is a good skill to develop. Think of it as a possible PPC ride every day. Theoretically you have been trained in how to handle the situation.

Ever think about WHY f/o pay is so poor? Ever think that these guys are competing with a company that doesn't even pay their crews? Ever think about how quick this company would go under if they paid a 250hr f/o a 'fair' wage ($24,000/yr ), or shelled out for two hotel rooms every day? It's not the management, it's the market, and the whores at the competition. They can't pay more because their margins are razor thin, and if they bill more, their contracts would head across the Strait. Simple economics.

Sudzy, I applaud you for walking away from a situation that you didn't feel was right for you, but you really can't trash those who were prepared to put up with it in order to advance their careers. I guess if you weren't in ATC that Jetsgo would be out of the question for you. Fair enough, but others feel differently. Don't trash the company, they are just trying to survive, and using all avenues available to them to do so. Low time pilots should feel lucky Navair even exists as an option. You'll move on faster than most other places in the country, and you can be sure your next job will be better.

Don't work there, never have. Just seen all this for many years...

[sudzy]

Great perspective. I agree. Im done with this post. Peace.

[lo flyer]

b007, you are the reason this industry is in such bad shape! Why dont you show yourself a little respect and quit taking it in the pooper. I know its hard but try....for everyone's sake.

[Killer Klown]

what lots of people don't know is that the guys at NavAir get an "experience" pay aswell....i think it is 7 per year with the company regardless of postion.....and they might start with poor wages put the mootoo guys make around 200-250 a day depending on the run...thats good enought to live off of...isn't it?

Also, name another company you can get on with at 200 hours and be flying mulit-turbine in 2-3 years?

[Killer Klown]

and another thing to the guys that have worked for the company and now complain about it....you all knew that you were going to work long days with poor pay in old airplanes when you lined up outside the CP's door every tuesday for a year hoping he remebers your name.

[. .]

You don’t dictate what your worth, supply and demand and right now there’s a lot of low timers out there so really your not worth much are you unless you can offer something that no one else can!

I totally disagree. The market may dictate a going rate, or average pay but you ALWAYS dictacte your worth. You may think you're worth more than the average and that is a decision only you can make. I would whole heartly support anyones fight to get better pay in this industry.