Difference between the WJPA and an actual Union?

[tonysoprano]

No, not many but recently Emirates had a tail strike incident. Rumor has it the pilots "resigned". Sure. I can also bring up our non union staff at AC. Many of them in lower management positions or clerical. There are numerous examples of these people getting fired with very little notice and very little reason. I don't know but I think if I did something "wrong" it sure would be nice to be able to at least tell my side of the story with representation by my side, for what it's worth.

[stickontheice]

I seriously doubt that non-unionized people get fired with very little reason or notice at Air Canada. If that was the case they'd be unionized too.

I don't know maybe its just me but if you show up for work drunk at 7:00 am and you're over three times the legal limit to drive, you deserve to be fired. If you're honestly that selfish not to realize that you're sick and do something about it sooner then I think you've made your bed. Now you can lie in it. If I was in a union I sure wouldn't want it protecting someone that is endangering hundreds of lives, his family at home, and the reputation of the company I worked for.

[WJ700]

That's why people who are alcoholics need a system to help them. Many don't realize they need help or want it. The current Pilot Assistance Team at WestJet has some pretty good training in this now from our company Doc, B Adams. The WestJet Pilot Assistance Team is becoming a very valuable tool of the WestJet pilots and I feel that in the near future it will work as smoothly as the ACPA or ALPA systems, if not already.

Martin T speaks some truth that WestJet pilots need to hear lately. He won't get any argument from me that our current in house Association needs serious overhaul... we'll see if the current WJPA can fix it to satisfy the silent majority. I don't want ALPA but I do want the all the same services tailored to the WestJet culture. I want those services while maintaining the good relationship with our Leadership Team.

[tonysoprano]

I seriously doubt that non-unionized people get fired with very little reason or notice at Air Canada. If that was the case they'd be unionized too.

Yes, thank God it doesn't happen very often but it does. Someone with many many years in the company can be and has been fired with very little notice. Given basically a few hours to clear out a desk and hand in your security pass. To try and get your job back through the Labour Court system can take years and a few bucks. Pilots who have a bad day can rest assured that their union will be there just as a lawyer would. Peace of mind or at least a fighting chance at saving one's career. Company's without unions can still do this but I don't think it's as effective. Unions also install a grievance system which works quite well.

[mattedfred]

The current Pilot Assistance Team at WestJet has some pretty good training in this now from our company Doc, B Adams. The WestJet Pilot Assistance Team is becoming a very valuable tool of the WestJet pilots and I feel that in the near future it will work as smoothly as the ACPA or ALPA systems, if not already.

Doc Bren is also an approved Jazz doctor and ALPA Canada Medical Consultant. The ALPA Canada PAC works with Doc Bren and Brian Murray. I've taken one of Brian's courses alongside some of the Westjet PAT members. Therefore, the Westjet system should work exactly the same as the ALPA Canada PAC system.

[Martin Tamme]

I seriously doubt that non-unionized people get fired with very little reason or notice at Air Canada. If that was the case they'd be unionized too.

Happens all the time... have you guys already forgotten about Rose Demonti?

[tonysoprano]

Yep, Rose was the most recent. They also did it to one of the long-time sim coordinators a while back.

[Martin Tamme]

The initial question was with respect to the differences between a sanctioned union and the WJPA. As I stated before, a sanctioned union has access to a "dispute resolution mechanism".

I'm not saying that Westjet isn't fair, or doesn't conduct investigations prior to handing out suspensions/terminations. All I was saying that there is no legal requirement to do so. Under the Canada Labour Code, dismissals can be made to any employee as long as severance is paid (applies to any employee in a federally regulated company who has more than one year of service, and the amount of severance is determined by the Code). Employees with less than one year of service are not entitled to severance pay.

There is no need to join ALPA, CAW, CUPE, ACPA, etc, to get this entitlement. All the WJPA has to do is formalise who they are by applying with the CIRB - that they represent the Westjet pilots. Nothing will change - no change in the relationship with Management, nor with the pilots. All you are doing is formalising the process in which a dispute can be resolved - everything else can remain the same as it presently stands (with the exception that the WJPA will be conducting votes - not the Company).

[stickontheice]

The initial question was with respect to the differences between a sanctioned union and the WJPA. As I stated before, a sanctioned union has access to a "dispute resolution mechanism".

I'm not saying that Westjet isn't fair, or doesn't conduct investigations prior to handing out suspensions/terminations. All I was saying that there is no legal requirement to do so. Under the Canada Labour Code, dismissals can be made to any employee as long as severance is paid (applies to any employee in a federally regulated company who has more than one year of service, and the amount of severance is determined by the Code). Employees with less than one year of service are not entitled to severance pay.

There is no need to join ALPA, CAW, CUPE, ACPA, etc, to get this entitlement. All the WJPA has to do is formalise who they are by applying with the CIRB - that they represent the Westjet pilots. Nothing will change - no change in the relationship with Management, nor with the pilots. All you are doing is formalising the process in which a dispute can be resolved - everything else can remain the same as it presently stands (with the exception that the WJPA will be conducting votes - not the Company).

There was no legal requirement to give us a travel credit after the Christmas chaos either, nor the share program or the profit share either. WestJet is just that kind of company. Don't think you'll find to many pilots that want to organize in the way you suggest. We have plenty of mechanisms in place to deal with the variety of issues that present itself. I'm not worried.

[rudder]

I don't want ALPA but I do want the all the same services tailored to the WestJet culture. I want those services while maintaining the good relationship with our Leadership Team.

That will never happen. There is not an independant union in North America that has the level of technical, aeromedical, legal, legislative, or safety resources that are available through ALPA. Nor will you have the resources available through IFALPA if you need professional assistance outside of North America.

There is no right or wrong answer - not joining ALPA is simply a choice.

[tonysoprano]

There was no legal requirement to give us a travel credit after the Christmas chaos either, nor the share program or the profit share either. WestJet is just that kind of company.

Way before the Christmas chaos AC management showed their appreciation by giving us "j" class travel anywhere we wanted. They always have ways to brainwash you. Part of the WJ model is to convince the employees you are all one happy family. Your management tries so hard to stress a good relationship in order to avoid the union dilemma but recently they showed you how in reality you can get screwed while being told they are your friends. When times are good, there are no issues. When times are bad, true colours come out. SouthWest unionized way before times got bad. They have not shown a profit in the last THREE quarters. I'm sure the pilots feel somewhat safe knowing they are better equipped than a "pilot group" these days. In the end management alway wins. But the better equipped you are, the better chance you have at DIGNITY.

[Four1oh]

Dignity?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akcutrbs-C4

[stickontheice]

There was no legal requirement to give us a travel credit after the Christmas chaos either, nor the share program or the profit share either. WestJet is just that kind of company.

Way before the Christmas chaos AC management showed their appreciation by giving us "j" class travel anywhere we wanted. They always have ways to brainwash you. Part of the WJ model is to convince the employees you are all one happy family. Your management tries so hard to stress a good relationship in order to avoid the union dilemma but recently they showed you how in reality you can get screwed while being told they are your friends. When times are good, there are no issues. When times are bad, true colours come out. SouthWest unionized way before times got bad. They have not shown a profit in the last THREE quarters. I'm sure the pilots feel somewhat safe knowing they are better equipped than a "pilot group" these days. In the end management alway wins. But the better equipped you are, the better chance you have at DIGNITY.

Way before Christmas WestJet gave me a profit sharing cheque which was enough to pay for Christmas, stockings and all. Consider me brainwashed then because there's no union dilemma because there's no need for a union. I would say that I stand with the majority of our pilots on that point. I see the current dilemma as an opportunity to illustrate to the rest of the industry of how management and pilots can work together outside organized labour. SouthWest isn't WestJet either, different country and different airline. Looking forward to teaming up with them though and I'm sure both our profits will go up because of it.

Its funny you mention brainwashing though because this video just showed up on YouTube not to long ago. Funny no mention of it from Jeng in the Globe but that's a different thread I'm sure. But its a real pep talk from your CEO. Love the spin he puts on the pension deficit. Pay particular attention to how many times he refers to the domestic market. I think it was zero. Basically he's asking the employees to accept and promote WJ culture within AC. At least that was my impression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY8u-0Lje8I

[Four1oh]

man, that was creepy!

[hoghead]

Look at the Canjet crew. A hijacker with a real weapon, no one was hurt. That was the best possible outcome in that situation because the way the crew handled it. I dont know the details but the fact that there was a safe ending, the details will only help the rest of us if that ever happens again.

The point being is that the crews actions saved lives and yet some asshole is going to come after them for damages. Canjet is going to step aside and say "we did everything right, there is a paragraph about hijacking in our FOM...Transport Canada even approved it!!".

When Canjet steps aside, its just that crew left with their own resources to defend themselves, every airline is the same. I dont know if WJ would stand up and cover the liability for their crews in that situation and I hope that test never happens. There are alot of grey areas in our industry and its nice going to work knowing that I have my association behind me.

Protecting yourselves as a group is not always about conflict with the company but having the resources to maintain the highest level of safety and not being alone. In essence this is not just a WJ issue, its an industry issue. If some one points a finger at the Canjet crew, should we not all help maybe? I know ACPA and ALPA would be of some assistance (I hope).

I would really like to see us as a group (all pilots) for once look out for each other.

...man I should not smoke weed and watch the wizard of oz at the same time......

[complexintentions]

There's nothing like working in the Middle East that makes you long for a union, I can tell you that! Having said that, comparing Emirates to WestJet is like comparing the Evil Empire to Mr. Roger's Neighbourhood.

Carry on.

[mattedfred]

hoghead,

canjet is an ALPA Canada carrier

[tonysoprano]

Way before Christmas WestJet gave me a profit sharing cheque which was enough to pay for Christmas,

Good for you stick. I just used plain old salary money.

[hoghead]

Thanks matt,
tea and medals for all!

[Bede]

Tony,

I don't get it. When management treats you bad, they're showing their true colours. When management treats you well, they're brainwashing you. What does management have to do to be good management? No management can please 100% of the employees 100% of the time. I understand your cynicism considering the management you have, but what kind of management would make you happy?

Cheers,

[tonysoprano]

Bede.
It's all about being up front with your employees. Something we at AC have been wanting ourselves for a while. But at the same time we have no illusions about our relationship with management. The only point I was trying to make is that when times are good, there doesn't seem to be a problem. The true test comes when times are bad. What I don't get is WJ seems to be doing well even in these bad times thanks mostly to the great work of the employee groups and yet management seems to be offering a substandard agreement according some folks. All the while telling the employees what a great relationship they have. Why not be up front and explain the reasons for their thinking? I'm sure the pilots would be very understanding since the relationship works well. I'm somewhat baffled by this because part of the success of the model relies deeply on a good relationship with the groups. From what I've learned about WJ on this forum about management and pilots,I was expecting the deal to be a good one and sealed many moons ago. And no I'm not saying a union would have helped anymore than what they have now.

[Herc_Driver]

The point being is that .... some asshole is going to come after them for damages.

Yeah, I agree. No doubt there. There's ambulance chasing lawyers everywhere who are out for the fast buck and who are more than willing to support such a lost cause - and no shortage of assholes who will see this as an opportunity to make a fast buck on the backs of Canjet and its employees and the crew. It'll be interesting to see when this happens.

When Canjet steps aside, its just that crew left with their own resources to defend themselves, every airline is the same. I dont know if WJ would stand up and cover the liability for their crews in that situation and I hope that test never happens. There are alot of grey areas in our industry and its nice going to work knowing that I have my association behind me.

Protecting yourselves as a group is not always about conflict with the company

My friend tells me that WJPA has secured the company's pilots with contracted, professional legal protection & representation - therefore, just another reason not to press for more formal "unionization" or "associationization". Seems like the WJPA has a mechanism in place for just such a problem.

[Intentional Left Bank]

It's all about being up front with your employees. Something we at AC have been wanting ourselves for a while. But at the same time we have no illusions about our relationship with management. The only point I was trying to make is that when times are good, there doesn't seem to be a problem. The true test comes when times are bad. What I don't get is WJ seems to be doing well even in these bad times thanks mostly to the great work of the employee groups and yet management seems to be offering a substandard agreement according some folks. All the while telling the employees what a great relationship they have. Why not be up front and explain the reasons for their thinking? I'm sure the pilots would be very understanding since the relationship works well. I'm somewhat baffled by this because part of the success of the model relies deeply on a good relationship with the groups. From what I've learned about WJ on this forum about management and pilots,I was expecting the deal to be a good one and sealed many moons ago. And no I'm not saying a union would have helped anymore than what they have now.

I think great progress was made on all fronts tonight. A wide range of questions were satisfactorily answered.

[Rotten Apple #1]

Martin, a very illustrative example (the drunk pilot at 7:00 am). Personally I'd use this example:

You're the first officer and you leave the flight deck to use the lav. You comeback into the FD only to find the aircraft on AutoPilot and the lead FA is bent over the pedestal and the Captain is leaning over doing lines of coke on her bethonged ass.

Now. Tell us the difference between how a unionized and non-unionized company would handle the scenario.

I mean, since we're coming up with interesting scenarios, why not use mine instead?

As a sidebar, I was part of the silent XXX-ority who had no major issues with the WJPA and its conduct in the relationship with management. As a result of my last interaction with the Negapalooza (Negathon? Negafest?) that is the WJPA forum, I'm not so silent anymore.

[Martin Tamme]

Hey John:

That example was is response to Widow, who was asking how a person can fail in an union-environment system. Sometimes you can only help those who help themselves.

I'm not saying that one cannot get terminated in a union environment, but at least one would get his day in court to tell his side of the story, that is if there is a side to tell. In a non-union environment, there are no guarantees.

Again, I'm not saying that Westjet wouldn't do the right thing and investigate the circumstances; all I am saying that there is no legal requirement imposed on Westjet to do so.

A union doesn't mean ALPA. It could be the same thing we had over at Air Atlantic with the AAPA (Air Atlantic Pilots Association). John, do you notice any differences between the WJPA & the AAPA in how go about their business and handle situations? The only difference is that the AAPA was recognised by the CIRB and had access to a 'dispute resolution mechanism' should all else have failed. Other than that, I don't believe there to be many differences.