Advantage......Employer

[Doc]

Well, we had a pretty nice eighteen month (give or take) run. For a while there, pilots were finding jobs as, wait for it, pilots.
It's over now. It'll stay over for probably two or more years. The employers have the advantage now. They usually do. Because we let them. But that's a different story.
Graduates from the aviation colleges, and private FTU's will find nothing much out there for them. The odd one will get lucky, but for the most part, the schools will be supplying the industry with cheap, almost free labor. Pilots will be again enticed to work eighty hour weeks for peanuts, their eyes ever glued on the Holy Grail, that is a flying job. It's this way because we allow it to be. But that's another story.
Some (the smart ones) will get real jobs, returning to aviation when the time is right, and with the same number of hours in their logs as their peers. But larger bank accounts. And, less abuse.
Some will become instructors. Some will just grow up, and move on.
And, there you have it. Here we (you, because I'm well past it)go again. Back on the merry go round, that is the aviation industry.

[touch&go]

If you are willing to relocate for a few years and not too picky where, then the jobs are there. I know this because I only have 900hrs tt, and 3 weeks ago was looking for a solid full time gig, with the potential for growth within a company. (ie: a decent company where I can move up the ranks) I have had 6 jobs offers across Canada in the last 3 weeks. I ended up taking one in Alberta (southern). So to say the jobs are few and far between is a little far fetched. Maybe if you have a list of preferences...

But if you're willing to make a bit of a sacrifice (not in pay, but rather location), then the jobs are there. If you want to live in Toronto, have a 5 on 3 off sched. and make 60k/yr then yea, it's a rough go. The recession is bad, but we can still make something out of it. We've been here before.

[shannon]

Doc's right, the industry has reverted back to its normal state. Pilots will be abused, used and underpaid for some time, just as they have for years. Safety will continue to deteriorate as a result as more pilots will be fearful of losing their seat if they make waves, and the industry gets dirtier.

[SkyWolfe]

How is it, that a pilot with 900 hours gets 6 calls, and one who has 800 hours gets none? For the record, this is with willingness to relocate, work for peanuts, and help on the ramp. Also, this pilot calls around to check in and say Hi.

I am very confused.

Maybe someone can shed some light?

[Doc]

How is it, that a pilot with 900 hours gets 6 calls, and one who has 800 hours gets none? For the record, this is with willingness to relocate, work for peanuts, and help on the ramp. Also, this pilot calls around to check in and say Hi.

I am very confused.

Maybe someone can shed some light?

Nothing more than, right call, right time. Always has been, always will be.

[Unknown]

How is it, that a pilot with 900 hours gets 6 calls, and one who has 800 hours gets none? For the record, this is with willingness to relocate, work for peanuts, and help on the ramp. Also, this pilot calls around to check in and say Hi.

I am very confused.

Maybe someone can shed some light?

Working for peanuts is as bad as signing a bond!

[mattedfred]

except peanuts is a pretty subjective term

[Colibri]

Nothing more than, right call, right time. Always has been, always will be.

Exactly! That's how I got my first break.

In times like these the saying "It's not what you know, but WHO you know", really means something.

[Red Line]

My first break was identical. It was during the last downturn and I got lucky with one of my follow-up phone calls. B.S.'d with the chief pilot for about 5 minutes over the phone and the job was mine. When I arrived for work a couple weeks later, one of the other pilots told me he remembered the day my resume came across the fax machine; the chief pilot walked in that morning saying "I gotta hire a new pilot TODAY." About 20 minutes later I just happened to phone. I felt like I had just won the lottery.

[AV8R]

when were we not underpaid

[Slats]

Some (the smart ones) will get real jobs, returning to aviation when the time is right, and with the same number of hours in their logs as their peers. But larger bank accounts. And, less abuse.

Funny, I didn't feel less smart by working the dock, living almost for free, saving a few bucks, spending alot more on boxes of beer, making great life-long friends, learning new skills (and alot about myself), earning a reputation, making connections and having the time of my life.

Don't think my bank account would have been much larger had I got a "real" job. And I worked my ass off, but I'm not the type that considers hard work to be "abuse."

[Stan Darsh]

Yeah amen to that. It seems to me that some people on this forum feel that many years of experience entitles them to make blanket statements about those that choose certain career paths. Somehow I don't see the correlation between intelligence and choosing a slightly less glamorous job within the industry and perhaps a more lucrative one outside of aviation. If people didn't give a shit about enjoying what they do for money everyone would be an investment banker or some sleazy criminal lawyer. On that note, however, I can understand how people who let passion get in the way of common sense allow pilot working standards to slide, and how experienced observers are frustrated with how the industry has changed because of it. To me though, being jaded doesn't give you the right to slag people who are trying to make an honest living without sacrificing their principles or taking a job they don't enjoy. Times change.

[Cat Driver]

To me though, being jaded doesn't give you the right to slag people

Which posters do you feel are jaded?

[4hrstovegas]

During the last downturn, I took a job on the ground with 900TT. Two years later I was a Jetstream Captain. Long term perspective, people. I'm pretty sure the guy who got a "real job" and waited for better times didn't have the same luck. One poster here says, "right time, right place" has always been the way. How are you supposed to be at the right time and place working from outside the industry? Ramp work is not what we all wanted to do, but with the right attitude and work ethic, working the ground gets you a lot more contacts and exposure than waiting on the sidelines. Just make sure you get a job at a decent company with potential.

[Strega]

as the HO would say,

"cleanin a shitter is cleanin a shitter"

if you are trained to fly, what does loading bags do for you? (other than supply the air operator with cheap labour)

[Doc]

During the last downturn, I took a job on the ground with 900TT. Two years later I was a Jetstream Captain. Long term perspective, people. I'm pretty sure the guy who got a "real job" and waited for better times didn't have the same luck. One poster here says, "right time, right place" has always been the way. How are you supposed to be at the right time and place working from outside the industry? Ramp work is not what we all wanted to do, but with the right attitude and work ethic, working the ground gets you a lot more contacts and exposure than waiting on the sidelines. Just make sure you get a job at a decent company with potential.

"Right attitude and work ethic" = slave for a company too cheap to hire real ramp persons. They would be limited to a 40 hour work week.

"Gets you a lot more exposure"....with who? The same cheap company you're being a slave for?

How are you going to in the "right place at the right time", if you're wandering around some ramp in the far north, or some hole ending ln "Lake" working 60 - 80 hours a week?

"waiting on the sidelines" with 250 hours, is where you will still be in two years.

[SkyWolfe]

Doc and stove something or whatever..


I dunno its a tough call. Doc, I like your post and the tune of it.. you are 100% correct. Employers post obscene demands cause they can..its simple economics.. The ramp is another way to use pilots as slaves.. I choose to work on ramp because when times are tough at least I can be around aircraft.. if im not flying them.. unfortunately companies are now staying away from hiring furloughed pilots...because they can apparently get better quality workers outside of aviation tapping into the immigrant or ex convict market. Don't ask me how this is so... If you leave your company due to safety issues you WILL be grilled about it.. Why? Cause they can.. and its you word against your employers.. No doubt it will stay this way until we see hiring like 2007/2008.

In my time on the ramp for 5 years I NEVER made contacts.. I was too busy loading, unloading, sweeping floors and dumping shitters, etc. However, the lead hands sure did as they were dealing with the crew directly..and made sure that the pee-ons were too busy to chat up the crew..and if said pee-on did try to network they would be reprimanded accordingly.

I think there is something to be said for the networking that can be done in some cases on the ramp..its all about the individual company.. Make sure the company you work for has equipment you can get on ..or does work for a company that will hire you with your time. Some companies WILL put you on the bird once they get a available spot..

My current employer (grooming company) tries to put the bug in everyone's ear that I am a pilot looking for work..and tries to hook me up with a flying job.. So depends.. BE CAREFUL! And of course, above all, if you can get a flying job.. take it..stay off the ramp.


What says you doc etc?

Canpilot

[Slats]

It never ceases to amaze me how so often the people who are the least affected are the ones most vociferously opposed to working in aviation in a non-flying capacity. I'm curious to know how this so deeply affects your life Doc, as you bomb around in your Beechcraft up to Sandy Lake. Since when are you judge, jury and executioner over those who make decisions that they feel are in the best interest of their career/life at a given point? Are you privy to all of the details that could lead a person to make such a decision? Surely someone with your time and experience could have progressed past your current position, right? I mean, surely had you relentlessly pursued the almighty dollar you could be a wide-body captain making a huge paycheck by now, could you not? Perhaps that never really interested you in the first place? Or perhaps through your past experiences and choices that have led you to this point in your career, you have found a balance that makes you shrug off all that? Perhaps despite that huge paycheck and big fancy aircraft and exotic faraway locales to lure you, you have found that you enjoy your life the way it is? Kinda like how some 20 year old kid might prefer to . bags or pump floats as opposed to swinging a hammer or throwing pipe tongs. Sure the money isn't as good, but the work won't take as many years off your life and besides all that, money just ain't everything to everyone. And as far as "exposure" goes, it's been my experience (brief though it may be when compared to yours) that there quite often tends to be more than just one aviation company in a given location. As such, it has also been my experience that any person with any degree of personality tends to make friends within the industry in that given location......probably based on commiseration on how shitty their lives must be eh? Making friends = making connections and connections are incredibly valuable I have learned. I know when I worked the dock I had more than one owner/operator say to me, with no inquiry on my part, "Keep in touch, I may need someone down the road." To me, that says hard work and a good attitude get noticed by more than just your own boss. So, a guy could choose to hammer nails or trip pipe all day and probably not work any harder than required because his heart isn't in it and he isn't getting noticed by anyone anyways, or a guy could choose to make a name for himself within his chosen industry by putting in an honest days work chucking bags or rolling fuel drums and maybe, just maybe, someone might take notice and say, "Yeah that Steve, he's a good shit. Hard-working mother-f*cker, he deserves a shot, lets call him up when a spot comes open." Personally, I've done all of the above. Ok, not ramp, but dock (same shit, different pile) and I've built houses and I've worked rigs. I made such an obscene amount of money in such a short time in the oil patch I couldn't spend it fast enough. I learned skills while framing houses that I can use any time should I ever need to fall back on something. But never working those types of jobs did I have so much fun and make so many good friends and great memories as I did when I got paid shit to wake up at god-awful hours to pump floats, turn a prop and load a pig of an Otter. And in the end, the time I put in there, directly contributed to me being in the position I am in now, that I am very happy with in all aspects. That doesn't mean I don't continue to keep my eyes open for something better (as everyone should at all times) but it is highly unlikely that there are many seats out there that could tempt me away from what I'm doing now. So, what's the moral of the story? There is no right and wrong, only what is right for an individual at a given point in their life. For some it may be giving up flying altogether to pursue something else. For others it might be working in a capacity outside aviation temporarily because certain constraints dictate such. For others still, it just might be working in aviation in a non-flying capacity because it's what they feel they need to do to get where they want to be. And really, if you have a problem with that personal decision....well quite frankly your opinion doesn't mean anything anyways.

[4hrstovegas]

"Right attitude and work ethic" = slave for a company too cheap to hire real ramp persons. They would be limited to a 40 hour work week.

A 40 hour work week?? Haha! What, like when you get a flying gig? Give me a break. You're right... somebody who is going to whine about 40 hour work weeks SHOULD find another career, cuz one way or another, it's going to happen.

"Gets you a lot more exposure"....with who? The same cheap company you're being a slave for?

Yeah, you're right. Somebody is much more likely to give you a job while you serve food or sell mobile phones. Hey, CPs need those things, too. Just make sure to keep your resume at the window for those times when an airline manager comes through the restaurant.

How are you going to in the "right place at the right time", if you're wandering around some ramp in the far north, or some hole ending ln "Lake" working 60 - 80 hours a week?

Not everybody begins and ends their career in a place then has a Lake, River, Saint or Fort in it. Right time, right place means being somewhere you like doing something you may not like, waiting for your chance to arise. This, sir, is called, "Life."

"waiting on the sidelines" with 250 hours, is where you will still be in two years.
Bulls**t. Unless you spend your time complaining about how the whole industry owes you a job, a 40-hour work week, training without contractual obligations, and in a place that doesn't end in "Lake".

Want to improve the industry? Support legislation that limits the way flight schools crank out CPLs each year. But I know you don't.

[iflyforpie]

I don't know of any licensed, current, CPL who would rather be chucking bags or pumping floats than flying airplanes.

Obviously it is in hopes of something better, and that is why they come. The employers dangle the carrot of a possible flying job, and they come in droves, willing to do anything for that coveted first flying gig. The less scrupulous employers will take advantage of this hope through low wages and broken promises.

I understand some employers a certain amount. Nobody can guarantee how fast the more experienced pilots can move on, so you can't say--except maybe from past experiences, how long a person's ramp time is going to be.


I have never been a rampie, but I work ramp. Everybody here does. But my first day at this job, I was rushed straight into a 206 and given my company training. I flew my first revenue flight day one. This week, in addition to fueling, cleaning, flying, etc, I am going to demolish a hangar and I am actually looking forward to it.



There seems to be this sense of entitlement after you get that flying position. Would any of you higher-time pilots work a day on the dock/ramp to give a qualified ground pounder a chance to fly? Last summer, we hired a low-timer who could only fly our 172. I gave him every single flight he could fly in that plane, and did his fueling and billing if he was busy with customers, even though I was entitled to fly a certain amount of those flights.

[Doc]

...well quite frankly your opinion doesn't mean anything anyways.

Well Slats old boy, if the above is the "bottom Line", why the marathon post? Nothing good on the tube?
The real bottom line is.....I don't really GARA if you want to work a ramp or not. You do what ever you want to do.
BTW, other than aiming it at me, it was a very informative post.
We don't agree on a couple of points.....life goes on.
Cheers

[Doc]

The original intent of this thread was to point out that it's a buyers market in aviation again. Companies can once again "walk all over pilots". And they will. And they do. It was intended to be a wake up call.
Some of you have turned it into a "Doc's an asshole" and knows nothing thread. Truth is, when I really look at it, I couldn't give a rat's ass if you want to go pack fudge in the fudge factory, shovel shit on the farm, or work an 80 hour week for some dink air carrier. I just don't care. It has zero affect on me. You can all go to the bank, take out huge loans, sign bonds to work as chattels for companies too cheap to consider training part of the cost of "doing business".
I really don't care.
But you should.

[Slats]

...well quite frankly your opinion doesn't mean anything anyways.

Well Slats old boy, if the above is the "bottom Line", why the marathon post? Nothing good on the tube?
The real bottom line is.....I don't really GARA if you want to work a ramp or not. You do what ever you want to do.
BTW, other than aiming it at me, it was a very informative post.
We don't agree on a couple of points.....life goes on.
Cheers

Yeah, sorry Doc, got a little carried away and a little too pointed in your direction. No hard feelings eh?

[Doc]

...well quite frankly your opinion doesn't mean anything anyways.

Well Slats old boy, if the above is the "bottom Line", why the marathon post? Nothing good on the tube?
The real bottom line is.....I don't really GARA if you want to work a ramp or not. You do what ever you want to do.
BTW, other than aiming it at me, it was a very informative post.
We don't agree on a couple of points.....life goes on.
Cheers

Yeah, sorry Doc, got a little carried away and a little too pointed in your direction. No hard feelings eh?

Absolutely none! It's a forum. We're supposed to share ideas and learn from others.

[Rog]

I really don't care.

I think it's pretty obvious that you do. Perhaps more than anyone else on the face of the planet.