CFI search

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:48 am

just putting a question out there. Why is it so hard to find a quality CFI these days?

No Conflict · Post by **No Conflict** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:42 am

Are you talking about a Chief Flight Instructor or a Certified Flight Instructor?

Either way, they're out there... just gotta look around.

frog · Post by **frog** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:55 am

For which company are you looking?
Have you put an ad yet?

You have a lot of resonsability and sh.... salary (most of the time)

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:15 am

Ya, im talking about a Chief Flight Instructor. IT just seems that there are no good ones out there. I have some choice words but i do not want to get booted off the site.

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:26 pm

I've noticed 3 ads for CFI's on this sight in the last couple of weeks. Here is why I didn't apply to any. Two wanted a CFI in a small town. So there's strike 1; not likely to be to busy. None of the companies looking where offering multi time. There's strike 2; not going to advance my career at all.
Now, I know that some people will respond by saying, "You should be more worried about providing quality instruction than logging multi time". They are half right. I am, as I should be, very focused on providing good instruction to my students, but doing that does not preclude advancing my career.
It comes down to supply and demand. I am a good instructor and I can charge a premium for my services, (that premium is multi time in a reasonablely active school). So, if you want a good CFI, bring something to the table. If all you have to offer is single engine time and the chance for a "self starter to build the school and student base" you had best resign yourself to the fact that you will not attract the cream of the crop

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:40 pm

its a well established school, multi single, aerobatic. Mcrit, you should have applied. PM if youre interested

Down & Locked · Post by **Down & Locked** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:04 am

Hey wha happen,
Congrats on turning this long time lurker into a first time poster...

mcrit,
It seems to me that your setting goals and developing a method (the type of job you are willing to take) in order to obtain those goals. Thats good, but answer me this - why is it that some job candidates with very little experience come with such large amounts of baggage. It gets old real fast. When I used to hire pilots to instruct or fly charter some of them actually talked themselves out of a job before I could offer it to them!! They just placed so many restictions on what they were or were not willing to do that I just got a real bad feeling about hiring them.

As for your strikes,

Strike 1 - Ya, a small school may be slower but that depends. I've been to some small towns with very busy schools.

Strike 2 - Multi time is important but so is total time. So is PIC time. So is night ... you get the idea. All flying time is important if what you want to do with you life is fly airplanes. Yeah I know too much of anything can get to you but every hour logged advances your career - its just that some kinds of hours will advance it faster than others. Also, never let anyone tell you that instructing isn't advancing your career because they are wrong and have just let you know how very limited their background is.

Is there a Strike 3? I think your still at the plate!

[/quote]

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:09 am

There's a couple of problems with getting a good CFI. Firstly you have two types of candidates - Class 2s who already are a CFI somewhere or a new Class 2 who has no experience being one. Your first one has no real reason to make what he probably views as a lateral move rather than an upward one. The second choice of course has no experience - especially in the new place you're asking him/her to go to. Which brings up our other question - why is our school looking outside for a CFI? Do they have none of their own instructors looking up to move to a class 2? If they do why aren't they promoting them? If they don't it really doesn't say much for how busy the school is.

The last problem of course is the CFI rarely is the only responsibility you're looking for this person to do - you also want them to be your authorized person, sometimes your PRM, salesperson, class 4 supervisor, the list goes on. So if you really want one, be up front, and be willing to pay him/her what he's worth - you have to entice him/her from elsewhere after all.

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:33 am

Down n Locked:

You've got some good points. I'm really just speaking from my own experience. I've got all the night/x-country time that I need (already have an ATPL). I'm not going to say that all class 1's are in the same position as me, but I will say that my situation is not unique. The most common thing that holds someones career back, (provided they want a career on large turbines) is multi time.

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 3:47 pm

wha:

The most important part of your question is the caveat of a 'good' CFI. Mostly seems to be a matter of supply. Speaking in generalities; very few GOOD Class I instructors (Class II for that matter as well) are not CAREER instructors. A career instructor is a special breed indeed, and is one thing a student should look for more than just about anything else in their training. As a career instructor, one expects to make a good wage, and/or live in a really appealing place. Most have figured out how to combine their instructing duties with other jobs (ferrying, contract charter work, used car sales, etc.) to have a very satisfying existance. Not many folks are still chasing equipment by the time they get to that point in their lives/careers, either because they've already been there, or have committed themselves to instruction. That's not to say they are not progressing, and possibly towards something else, they just aren't forcing it. And to top it all off, they get to listen to the crap that spews forth from the mouths of some pilots who have never done the job. Takes a level of maturity few posess to listen to the garbage and smile.

I'd be interested to see the stats on how many Class I/II instructors there are in this country, and how many positions there are that require that level of experience (remember, TC eats class Is up every few years for jobs in Flight Training=$$). Might shed some light on your dilemma. Yes, there are a few out there, and my experience has been that they are still 'out there' for a reason. I understand what you're dealing with. Good luck.

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:24 am

I have a similar problem ... I'd like a new Mercedes in my driveway, but I'm only willing to pay enough dollars to buy a 10-year old Hyundai.

Obviously there's something seriously wrong with the Mercedes factory's pricing.

You 'spose if I was willing to pay market price for a Mercedes, that I could buy one?

Hint: sometimes, you get what you pay for. Schools that like to pay starving class 4's $100/month for 240 hours of work and are puzzled that they can't get a class 2 or 1 for the same price are pretty funny.

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:37 am

In that case... I will come and be your CFI for One Million dollars!

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:40 am

Or is that ... One BILLION dollars?

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:15 pm

Down n locked, I have to disagree with ya on a few points. First off, Multi time is all important to an instructor because without it, instructing time is almost useless. I’m not knocking instructing, I'm a former instructor myself, just making a point. Why take another dead end job just to say your a CFI?

You also mentioned total time, yes TT is important, so long as you have the right balance. 4000 hours of single engine instructional time isn't going to help you get a job. Aside from having no real experience, the high time instructor usually has a bit of an attitude; they feel their ready for an immediate upgrade, which is not the case. An upgrade depends on a combination of attitude, ability and knowledge.

Now 1000 hours of instructional time is a good start. get some twin time and move on. No one does this as a career unless they have a good lifestyle, which 99% of schools don't offer.
it's a stepping stone job, like most. But that doesn't stop the candidate from doing the best job they can, that’s more a personal pride thing.

Cheers.

Shiny Side Up · Post by **Shiny Side Up** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:19 pm

hz2p wrote:Or is that ... One BILLION dollars?

Yes! And I want the airplanes all to have shark's mouths and have frickin' laser beams! Is that really too much to ask for?

gowest · Post by **gowest** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 6:16 pm

Wha happen,
how much would you pay for a CFI?
I wouldn't consider anything below 35 000$...

gowest

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:31 am

40 - 45 range, is the not fair.

K, to pose a new question - What is a fair salary for a Class 1 CFI???

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:54 am

Good question ... salary could be defined as compensation, which can take more than just a monetary form - it can be valuable time in your logbook, qualifying the CFI for the next careeer stepping stone.

It should be obvious there are generally two kinds of CFIs ... (usually younger) guys who are not planning to instruct forever, and want to fly heavy iron.

Then there are (usually older) guys who for whatever reason (age, no degree, local ties, other sources of income) have given up chasing the heavy iron dream and just want a paycheque.

The first group of guys would probably be happy with near-starvation wages, as long as they're getting that all-important multi time. Not much has changed for these guys, since they got their class 4's and took a job at starvation wages to build single-engine time. Compensation for these (younger) guys is the right kind of time in their logbook - it's not about the money, really. With enough twin time, you could snag an eager and ambitious class 1 for easily $1,000 a month - maybe less - which i find somewhat depressing.

The second group of guys probably couldn't care less about getting twin time, or any other kind of time for that matter. They've filled up enough logbooks - they may not even bother logging time any more. They want cash, and to go home as early as possible, and show up as late as possible, and as many days off as possible. They don't spend their spare time hanging around the airport, they've bought that t-shirt before. They're going to want at least $3,000 a month. If you want to see them around the airport very much, count on $4,000 a month. These older guys generally have other interests and other sources of income and won't show up for the typical starvation wages that flight schools like to offer.

Generally only larger schools can afford this kind of low-productivity overhead, compared to the output they get from the younger guys who are glad to work for starvation wages ... which is why you will see so few full-time career instructors.

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:33 am

Ah, but what about the third kind of instructor, the one who wants all the twin time and 4000 a month. They are out there.

So 4000/ month, x 12 months is roughly 50,000. I have only met a handfull of CFI's that are worth 50,000 a year.

frog · Post by **frog** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:42 am

Honestly, could you afford it ?

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:56 am

if the guy is willing to put in the work to justify the 50 a year, then yes. But a CFI job is also about being personable. And i have issues with paying a guy that much and him having as personality as a pack of snails

frog · Post by **frog** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:22 am

I agree,
Actually it is 50 % of the job of an instructor CFI or not.
A student is most of the time nervous to fly specially on the first flights and the last thing he needs is an intimidating instructor.
But I don't think it should be that hard to find.
I acted for a while as a CFI and I would say that most of the instructor I dealt with were easy persons to deal with. Although I am French

I think the problem is that instructor job are not very well considered in the industry for various reasons already described in this forum.

So when a person reaches the class I or II level, he/she is willing to go for a "real job" and therefore is tired of the instructing buisness.

Flight school is the "cheapest" buisness somebody passionated with aviation could start. So a lot of people have started their own school which usually are not making a lot of money, (hard competition, lack of funds).

If the school is doing poorly the employees don't make a lot of money either and therefore become frustrated..etc...

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:30 am

This is why there are very few career instructors - there are very few instances in which a flight school will pay what it takes to keep an older guy around, who by that point in his life almost certainly has other sources of income, which pay him more and are less of a pain in the ass, than being a CFI.

And you sure don't need to pay a young guy, who is hungry for twin time, anything approaching $4,000 a month. You can if you want, but the market doesn't require it. To prove it to you, I will wager that I can choke any fax machine in the country if I post the following job ad:

Wet Dream Job Advertisement
Wanted: CFI for flight school/charter operation. No ab initio instruction duties, that's what our class 3's and 4's are for. Your duties will be mainly supervisory and exclusively multi training. Guaranteed minimum 80 multi-engine hours per month. Opportunity to move to charter side of operation after 1 week. Salary $1,000/month. Fax resume with blue-white cloud paper to 100-555-1212

Gimme your fax number and I'll burn up all your paper - there are plenty of starving young instructors out there that are quite happy to keep on starving.

wha happen · Post by **wha happen** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:35 am

you post that, hell, ill apply

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:44 pm

wha happen wrote: Why is it so hard to find a quality CFI these days?

Because I'm busy, that's why.

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