Hello,
I'd like to know what are the consequences of using high-tech integrated avionics (ie: general aviation PFD/MFD systems, like those from Garmin, Avidyne and Chelton) in training aircraft, especially for ab initio students.
Also, what would be the best ways of going around possible negative or side effects?
Would putting classic backup instruments on the student's side and leaving the integrated systems to the instructor be worth considering?
I ask this question with a long term outlook. FAA's Capstone project looks great, but if they do want to implement this in their whole airspace (I assume with Canada following soon afterwards) I believe they'll have to solve this issue and I felt like bringing it up on this board.
Thanks in advance,
Louis
High-tech avionics and flight instruction?
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groundtoflightdeck
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Glass Cockpits for students
I did a lot of training on the Cirrus SR22. For a newby pilot they are quiet comfortable right off the bat being that they are not really "used to something". For tranisitioning students make sure they understand that their life is simpler now. They can get very wrapped up in the new instrumentation. Especially for VFR, get them out the window looking- I hate it when the first place the guys look for traffic is on the TCAS- VFR out the window first down to TCAS if they don't see it. As for the GPSs, use the online software, very helpful, let them play with it, and in the airplane keep the GPS working (after all its like 10gs+, make it pull its weight).
Anyways, thats what I recall right now.
Anyways, thats what I recall right now.
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mikegtzg
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Easy to answer. You'll have 1 less set of eyes looking outside the cockpit. All that stuff looks cool, but it will certainly lower the students situational awareness. Why look out the window when the Traffic alert system doesn't show the Piper Cub established in the circuit? No need to learn to spot an airport when the tv screen onboard says its 7 miles at 230deg.
It would take a lot of discipline for both the instructor and student to not use it at the time when learning basic stick and rudder skills is most important. Wouldn't it be embarrassing for the instructor if your student declares an emergency because the Garmin blew a fuse!
Does the average private pilot with a 2-4 seater that flies for fun and a hamburger really need a $25,000 glass panel? Save that stuff until later.
It would take a lot of discipline for both the instructor and student to not use it at the time when learning basic stick and rudder skills is most important. Wouldn't it be embarrassing for the instructor if your student declares an emergency because the Garmin blew a fuse!
Does the average private pilot with a 2-4 seater that flies for fun and a hamburger really need a $25,000 glass panel? Save that stuff until later.
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Cat Driver
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Louis :
A very, very good question.
My personal opinion is modern cockpits are the only training platform that will be avaliable soon.
To train pilots with mechanical analog instruments is the same as using the horse and buggy in a automobile driving school.
The glass cockpit is eons ahead of steam guages in every way that I can think of.
If someone of my vintage has embraced the glass cockpit I see no reason for the younger generation not to seamlessy cross over to the 21 st. century.
One fly in the ointment of course will be waiting for TC to realize that the future is not in the 1930 's technology...
So the sooner you get familiar with glass the better off you will be.
In a couple of weeks I will return to Holland and can't wait to fly the diesel Katana twin with the glass cockpit, as one of our group has bought one for his school.
Cat
A very, very good question.
My personal opinion is modern cockpits are the only training platform that will be avaliable soon.
To train pilots with mechanical analog instruments is the same as using the horse and buggy in a automobile driving school.
The glass cockpit is eons ahead of steam guages in every way that I can think of.
If someone of my vintage has embraced the glass cockpit I see no reason for the younger generation not to seamlessy cross over to the 21 st. century.
One fly in the ointment of course will be waiting for TC to realize that the future is not in the 1930 's technology...
So the sooner you get familiar with glass the better off you will be.
In a couple of weeks I will return to Holland and can't wait to fly the diesel Katana twin with the glass cockpit, as one of our group has bought one for his school.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Right Seat Captain
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I'll have to side with Cat on this one. I think it's more difficult for a pilot with only analog instruments to learn to fly a glass cockpit afterwards. The one less set of eyes looking outside that mikegtzg brought up, is more likely to be a licenced pilot, rather than a students.
Assuming you're teaching the student to fly, you can teach them right off the bat, primacy, how to fly without staring at the screens. Someone who is licenced is confident enough to get distracted.
Assuming you're teaching the student to fly, you can teach them right off the bat, primacy, how to fly without staring at the screens. Someone who is licenced is confident enough to get distracted.
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Cat Driver
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Exactly, RSC.
When giving the most important lesson that any new student will get...attitudes and movements, you only allow the student to see the speed tape.
Until the student burns their brain to receive attitude clues by outside reference you can make a cover to prevent them looking at the PFD.
It never fails to amaze me how reluctant some trainers are to embrace new technology, and the ridiculous arguments that they will come up with to convince themselves that only the system that they learned on is the correct one.
Anyhow Louis and RSC I'm in your corner when it comes to forging ahead rather than staying stuck in the past....now if we can convince TC that there is another world out there flight training will keep up with aircraft technology.
Cat
When giving the most important lesson that any new student will get...attitudes and movements, you only allow the student to see the speed tape.
Until the student burns their brain to receive attitude clues by outside reference you can make a cover to prevent them looking at the PFD.
It never fails to amaze me how reluctant some trainers are to embrace new technology, and the ridiculous arguments that they will come up with to convince themselves that only the system that they learned on is the correct one.
Anyhow Louis and RSC I'm in your corner when it comes to forging ahead rather than staying stuck in the past....now if we can convince TC that there is another world out there flight training will keep up with aircraft technology.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Flying Low
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Although I agree that the glass cockpit is far superior, I wonder if we are doing IFR students a disservice if that is all they train on. I can just imagine the trouble a low time pilot might have going from the glass cockpit to "steam" driven instruments when they get that first IFR job.
I haven't personally had the opportunity to fly "glass"; it is my impression that the scan will be more difficult in the older generation a/c especially if the pilot is completely new to analog instruments. I think that exposure to both would be ideal as both systems will be around for quite a while
Besides....if you can keep your situational awareness using a couple of CDI's and a fixed card ADF with no HSI or RMI you are golden with any other setup.
IMHO
I haven't personally had the opportunity to fly "glass"; it is my impression that the scan will be more difficult in the older generation a/c especially if the pilot is completely new to analog instruments. I think that exposure to both would be ideal as both systems will be around for quite a while
Besides....if you can keep your situational awareness using a couple of CDI's and a fixed card ADF with no HSI or RMI you are golden with any other setup.
IMHO
"The ability to ditch an airplane in the Hudson does not qualify a pilot for a pay raise. The ability to get the pilots, with this ability, to work for 30% or 40% pay cuts qualifies those in management for millions in bonuses."
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Cat Driver
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Flying low.
Yes there will be a change over period, however it will be very quick as the modern panels become the norm.
And with all due respect, there is no such thing as a scan.
You fly instruments, be it steam or glass with big the picture and the relative bit of info in the center of your focus.
Teaching scan is doing a disservice to the student in my opinion.
Sure we scan but not as much as some instructors so love to teach. using the big picture including peripherial vision to send the situitional awareness information to the brain is really how we do it eventually, so why not teach it right from the start...
...I bet I just stepped in the dog shit again and will be innundated with angry flight instructors who will feel that I have desecrated the teaching profession by sharing such strange thoughts.
Cat
Yes there will be a change over period, however it will be very quick as the modern panels become the norm.
And with all due respect, there is no such thing as a scan.
You fly instruments, be it steam or glass with big the picture and the relative bit of info in the center of your focus.
Teaching scan is doing a disservice to the student in my opinion.
Sure we scan but not as much as some instructors so love to teach. using the big picture including peripherial vision to send the situitional awareness information to the brain is really how we do it eventually, so why not teach it right from the start...
...I bet I just stepped in the dog shit again and will be innundated with angry flight instructors who will feel that I have desecrated the teaching profession by sharing such strange thoughts.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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shitdisturber
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Personally, I'd like to see a little from column A and a little from column B on this issue. While glass cockpits are a wonderful thing, I think training pilots on them to the exclusion of all else is doing them a disservice. As has been pointed out, not a lot of the smaller operators have them so it's good for prospective pilots to see how instrument flying was done when Christ was a cowboy and Cat was middle aged. 
After all it's going to be years if not decades before steam driven instruments have gone the way of the dinosaur.
After all it's going to be years if not decades before steam driven instruments have gone the way of the dinosaur.-
Big Pistons Forever
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I am with Cat Driver on this one. Glass Cockpits are exremely flexable. What instructors need to do is get out of the status quo mindset and ask the question "What is the right level of information that should be displayed on the screen for this lesson". I also think the argument that a glass trained pilot won't be able to fly steam guages is misleading. The heart of the new presentations is not the TV screen it is the GPS engine driving it. For the first time ever a pilot can know exactly where he is all the time. Even the most bedragled Ho's all seem to have GPS in them and the reality is I have not actually flown a NDB approach in over 10 years. Like everyone else I roll in on the GPS track bar or bearing while watching the ADF needle flop around. Eventually the needle ends up pointing straight ahead just as the runway shows up exactly at 12 oclock. Managing situational awareness is the real challenge and I personnal believe that a properly glass cockpit trained IFR pilot would actually be better in a steam guage GPS equiped airplane.
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Cat Driver
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Flying Low
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Well....someone has to disagree with Cat or this will go to his head! 
I'll go along with the peripheral vision rather than scan but I don't think you will see Voyageur, Commercial, Navair, etc. running out and converting their a/c to glass in short order.
Getting undercover ducking the wrath of the CAT!
I'll go along with the peripheral vision rather than scan but I don't think you will see Voyageur, Commercial, Navair, etc. running out and converting their a/c to glass in short order.
Getting undercover ducking the wrath of the CAT!
"The ability to ditch an airplane in the Hudson does not qualify a pilot for a pay raise. The ability to get the pilots, with this ability, to work for 30% or 40% pay cuts qualifies those in management for millions in bonuses."
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Cat Driver
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No need to duck flying low, we both are basically on the same page.
The bag run companies will use the cheapest equipment availiable and glass is soon going to be a lot cheaper to buy, so they will start retrofitting bit by bit as the prices change.
The accuracy of computer driven attitude AHRS sensing devices is better than steam guages and do not suffer from the same wear as the mechanical stuff does.
When I get my Amphib Cub finished I will put the Dynon EFIS-D10A in it with anywheremap that will be just fine.
Cat
The bag run companies will use the cheapest equipment availiable and glass is soon going to be a lot cheaper to buy, so they will start retrofitting bit by bit as the prices change.
The accuracy of computer driven attitude AHRS sensing devices is better than steam guages and do not suffer from the same wear as the mechanical stuff does.
When I get my Amphib Cub finished I will put the Dynon EFIS-D10A in it with anywheremap that will be just fine.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Well, there goes my quiet night..............
I loath the idea of initial training at ANY level being done on glass.
Think about it. Unless you go directly to a 737-700 or an A-320, where are you going to use glass after your initial training?
How are you going to develope that "feeling" about where you are in space if you have a colour display right in front of you tell you where you are.
Glass causes complacency. After having flown steam driven DC-10's and 737-200's for years, I spent 3 1/2 years on MD-11's before going back to 737-200's. It took me forever to figure out where the heck I was in space, and I was the captain!
Later as an instructor on 737-200's, I got to see the damage that was done to my F/O students who came from corporate glass or General Aviation GPS moving maps. Three of them were dropped from training because they just couldn't get their minds into gear in the alotted time. Dreams shot to hell........
Therein lies the true danger of training on glass. With steam you are FORCED to think and plan the whole time. With glass, why think? After all the answer is right in front of you.
As instructors we should be training our students to THINK, not just to fly.
I have been back on glass (including HUD) for a year now. It is a cast iron bitch to MAKE myself calculate if I am high or low on decent, how far I am to loc intercept or even to LOOK at the RMI needles on the nav display.
Of course, if everything goes for a dump I am back to steam anyway on the standby instruments.
Am I getting old? Maybe, but then again I also think that every kid should learn to add, subtract, multiply and divide before they are given a scientific calculator to use in school.
I sure would hate to be flying with a pilot who was like the Walmart checkout person I had last week who couldn't figure out my change from a ten dollar bill because her terminal was down.
I loath the idea of initial training at ANY level being done on glass.
Think about it. Unless you go directly to a 737-700 or an A-320, where are you going to use glass after your initial training?
How are you going to develope that "feeling" about where you are in space if you have a colour display right in front of you tell you where you are.
Glass causes complacency. After having flown steam driven DC-10's and 737-200's for years, I spent 3 1/2 years on MD-11's before going back to 737-200's. It took me forever to figure out where the heck I was in space, and I was the captain!
Later as an instructor on 737-200's, I got to see the damage that was done to my F/O students who came from corporate glass or General Aviation GPS moving maps. Three of them were dropped from training because they just couldn't get their minds into gear in the alotted time. Dreams shot to hell........
Therein lies the true danger of training on glass. With steam you are FORCED to think and plan the whole time. With glass, why think? After all the answer is right in front of you.
As instructors we should be training our students to THINK, not just to fly.
I have been back on glass (including HUD) for a year now. It is a cast iron bitch to MAKE myself calculate if I am high or low on decent, how far I am to loc intercept or even to LOOK at the RMI needles on the nav display.
Of course, if everything goes for a dump I am back to steam anyway on the standby instruments.
Am I getting old? Maybe, but then again I also think that every kid should learn to add, subtract, multiply and divide before they are given a scientific calculator to use in school.
I sure would hate to be flying with a pilot who was like the Walmart checkout person I had last week who couldn't figure out my change from a ten dollar bill because her terminal was down.
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Cat Driver
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TJ :
I agree with what you are saying, but unfortunately the trend is quickly going towards glass.
Have you seen the new Diamond Twin Stars panel?
As to the situational thing, yes glass does paint a different picture than steam guages, but I personally have not had any problem with the big picture, maybe its because my brain still functions in the steam mode?
Anyhow this also seems to be the way of the future...
I sure would hate to be flying with a pilot who was like the Walmart checkout person I had last week who couldn't figure out my change from a ten dollar bill because her terminal was down.
Oh well I'll soon be getting out anyhow and for me it won't matter anyhow.
Cat
I agree with what you are saying, but unfortunately the trend is quickly going towards glass.
Have you seen the new Diamond Twin Stars panel?
As to the situational thing, yes glass does paint a different picture than steam guages, but I personally have not had any problem with the big picture, maybe its because my brain still functions in the steam mode?
Anyhow this also seems to be the way of the future...
I sure would hate to be flying with a pilot who was like the Walmart checkout person I had last week who couldn't figure out my change from a ten dollar bill because her terminal was down.
Oh well I'll soon be getting out anyhow and for me it won't matter anyhow.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Flying Low
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Bummer!
All that time spent navigating at 500' in a Supercub over northern Ontario with a map and a compass (not even a DG) has gone to waste!
All that time spent navigating at 500' in a Supercub over northern Ontario with a map and a compass (not even a DG) has gone to waste!
"The ability to ditch an airplane in the Hudson does not qualify a pilot for a pay raise. The ability to get the pilots, with this ability, to work for 30% or 40% pay cuts qualifies those in management for millions in bonuses."
Well, there you go Cat. You had no problems because you've had the steam system of thinking beat into you over the last God knows how many years.
You transitioned to glass. You didn't learn on it nor were confined to it early in your career. You thus developed the ability to think and plan for yourself in the plane.
How many newbees do you figure will be able to do that on glass alone.
You transitioned to glass. You didn't learn on it nor were confined to it early in your career. You thus developed the ability to think and plan for yourself in the plane.
How many newbees do you figure will be able to do that on glass alone.
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Cat Driver
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Vickers vanguard
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Tcas in an SR22 ? it was probably a Tcad system! big big difference !
The AHRS unit used by the G1000 EFIS in the diamond twinstar is not that accurate. In fact, it can't even be used on any transport certified airplane. Its accuracy doesn't even beat a stock litton INS designed in the late 70's. Do you know what's the source of attitude input the present autopilot in the twinstar uses ? they use a traditional electrical turn coordinator hidden behind the panel itself.
The biggest innovation with the garmin box is its ability to realigne itself in flight..even in a banked attitude up to 25 degree of bank
There is no plans to retrofit older airplanes since the system costs aprox $60,000 can, and nobody is willing to come up with an STC for such mod, given the work required.
However, it's good enough for its intended use.............. at least, that's what the FAA thinks.
it was probably a Tcad system! big big difference !The AHRS unit used by the G1000 EFIS in the diamond twinstar is not that accurate. In fact, it can't even be used on any transport certified airplane. Its accuracy doesn't even beat a stock litton INS designed in the late 70's. Do you know what's the source of attitude input the present autopilot in the twinstar uses ? they use a traditional electrical turn coordinator hidden behind the panel itself.
The biggest innovation with the garmin box is its ability to realigne itself in flight..even in a banked attitude up to 25 degree of bank
There is no plans to retrofit older airplanes since the system costs aprox $60,000 can, and nobody is willing to come up with an STC for such mod, given the work required.
However, it's good enough for its intended use.............. at least, that's what the FAA thinks.
I agree tech is a great tool. The advancement are fantastic and they will just get better. As a student I did some training in a 172N with autopilot and GPS it was cool for a time building cross-country. It was great because I wasen't introduced to it until just before I recevied my Private pilots licence. At that time I have already mastered the proper Nav skills. Since then I haven't used it I wish I had it for my commercial x-Country BUrlington to ST.Louis I took the long route and a great head wind 7 hours It would have been really nice to have the auto for that.
I've been lucky enough to teach at a school that offers the best in advanced avionics for light aircraft...but I have to say that I agree with many on this subject that the students have to learn the basics..how to fly without all of the fancy equipment, as far as glass cockpit I think it's a good idea to introduce to licensed pilots only.
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Cat Driver
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Quote :
" but I have to say that I agree with many on this subject that the students have to learn the basics..how to fly "
I will agree with that, and we could start with attitudes and movements.... I get annoyed with bad habits such as airspeed chasing in the circuit, especially on climb out because the pilot is trying to fly attitude by reference to the ASI instead of looking outside for attitude information.
Cat
" but I have to say that I agree with many on this subject that the students have to learn the basics..how to fly "
I will agree with that, and we could start with attitudes and movements.... I get annoyed with bad habits such as airspeed chasing in the circuit, especially on climb out because the pilot is trying to fly attitude by reference to the ASI instead of looking outside for attitude information.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
High-tech avionics and flight instruction?
I don't think it matters much in terms of teaching to fly. Ya got to cover both and watch that the eyes are outside. With regard to teaching instrument flying, I've seen IFR pilots blow a simple VOR problem because the never have done IFR without a HSI. Go figure.
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flying high
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