Question:

[flyincanuck]

What is the difference between Centre Stored Route, and Flight Planned Route? I was scolded a few weeks ago by FSS for saying FPR instead or CSR in my read back. Didn't know it was a touchy subject, or frankly, that there was a difference.

[natej]

I assume you were reading back a clearance? As an FSS, I can say I have never heard the term CSR before, and do not know what it means, although I have a pretty good idea. So if a pilot read back a term I was unfamiliar with in a clearance readback, I would deffinatley get him to read back exactly what I said, so my ass is covered, and no assumptions are made.

[GilletteNorth]

CSR or center stored routes are flight plans filed by a company that are used for daily flights using the same routes, altitudes, airspeeds etc. When a flight departs using a center stored flight plan they may be given the clearance as "via center stored route".
A pilot in a company may decide not to use the CSR and file his own flight plan. It may have different routing, altitudes, airspeed etc from the company CSR flight plan. If so, it may be reflected in the clearance delivery as "via flight plan route'".
Readbacks are supposed to be verbatim. Too many pilots condense or change the wording in clearances. It is allowable to do this as long as the FSS believes the pilot understands the gist of what the clearance allowed him to do but at the same time the FSS may request the specific VERBATIM readback of any portion of the clearance that seems unclear. This problem with CSR and FPR would be easily solved if pilots would stop giving anything less than verbatim readbacks.

[lilfssister]

Amen!

[flyincanuck]

ahhhhhhh...makes sense!

As for the verbatim read-backs...i appreciate the concept, but consecutive 14-hour days and sometimes 10+ sectors per shift can get the best of us. Oh, and keep in mind I didn't even know there was a difference between the two. Important thing is that i understand now. No hard feelings, thanks!

[aklinz]

Flyincanuck: You might also consider that the FSS you were talking to might have been undergoing an "over the shoulder" check. As such, he would have written CSR on his clearance form, and not FPR. Not a touchy subject at all. Readbacks are simply to be Verbatim
Andrew Klinzmann

[200hr Wonder]

Speaking of pilots shortening clearances, I will often get the following: Slow night nothing inbound or outbound.

Me: ABC taxing for departure runway 34 IFR somespot.
Fss: ATC clears ABC to somespot airport via currentspot direct, maintain 15,000 while in controlled air space. Sqwak 1554

Other times I get:

Me: ABC taxing for departure runway 34 IFR somespot.
Fss: ATC clears ABC to somespot airport via currentspot direct, maintain 15,000 while in controlled air space. Depart runway 34, turn left, proceed on course. Sqwak 1554

Now being the nice guy that I am read back the extra bit, but if I am lazy or tired I get ragged on and asked the read back the whole part. I just said I was taxing for 34 and of course I am going to turn left somespot is roughly an initial heading of 310 so turning right does not make a lot of sense. And it seems I always get the extra bit from the same controllers.

[KT111]

Speaking of pilots shortening clearances, I will often get the following: Slow night nothing inbound or outbound.

Me: ABC taxing for departure runway 34 IFR somespot.
Fss: ATC clears ABC to somespot airport via currentspot direct, maintain 15,000 while in controlled air space. Sqwak 1554

Other times I get:

Me: ABC taxing for departure runway 34 IFR somespot.
Fss: ATC clears ABC to somespot airport via currentspot direct, maintain 15,000 while in controlled air space. Depart runway 34, turn left, proceed on course. Sqwak 1554

Now being the nice guy that I am read back the extra bit, but if I am lazy or tired I get ragged on and asked the read back the whole part. I just said I was taxing for 34 and of course I am going to turn left somespot is roughly an initial heading of 310 so turning right does not make a lot of sense. And it seems I always get the extra bit from the same controllers.

Habit I suppose. It'd be the same reason you do your walk around the same way every day until shown a better way, the same way you run your checklists, fly the plane, etc. In this industry we all form habits, for better or for worse, and usually unless shown a new way to improve upon a habit we will keep doing things the same way. I'd say the same goes for controllers, fss, as well as pilots.

[Dave T]

I fully agree that pilots need to be a little better with reading the clearance back properly. The FSS may not understand the difference and they are required to hear it back word for word. I always try to be proper and it really isn't that hard or take very much longer to read back. If you're so tired that you can't write down a clearance and read it back word for word then you shouldn't be flying at all.

[bigfssguy]

Iwanted to respond to 200h wonder. i know that reading hte turns seems odvious sometimes but we have to hear it since it is part of the clearance. If it's not read back even in the odvious situations i will ask for it. reason being here in CHurchill the turns become important since a lot of planes tend to wander when departing IFR to look for bears or Whales.They'll depart and take acircuitous route exiting the zone and getting on course. there is a reason for the turn in most situations, a lot of airports serviced by FSS don;t ahve SID's so to depart you are given a procedural departure to ensure seperation even in a radar enviroment. Once your airborne and radar identified the controller can do whatever they want to you but until that point you are treated as a procedural departure.

the various elements are generally put in the clearance for a reason (most of the time) so we are required and obligated to hear you read them back. It don't think it has to be exact on your end but from our side as long as we feel comfortable that you understand the intent of the clearance we'll say readback correct. Saying it Verbatim can clarify any doubts that you inderstand the clearance negating the need to ask for clarification, cleaning up the MF of unneccesary chatter and annoying you and me a lot less.

[200hr Wonder]

Fair enough and there are a lot of times that we will get a modified clearance for separation purposes. Just the other day I got maintain runway way heading for 5min before proceeding on or turn to such and such a heading until through such and such an altitude. Which of I understand.

[gustind]

Correct me if I am wrong but a read back is considered correct if the SID and squawk code are read back. In the case of no SID, departure instructions. Something I've heard...

[ahramin]

Gustind, the only time you can skip the full readback is when there is a control tower in operation and the departure is a SID. In this case you only have to read back the transponder code, not the SID. If there is no SID or if the clearance is coming through FSS you have to read back the entire clearance.

[pelmet]

For some reason at YUL, you have to read back the SID, as mentioned in the CFS.

[Lurch]

Gustind, the only time you can skip the full readback is when there is a control tower in operation and the departure is a SID. In this case you only have to read back the transponder code, not the SID. If there is no SID or if the clearance is coming through FSS you have to read back the entire clearance.

For some reason at YUL, you have to read back the SID, as mentioned in the CFS.

I don't have it in front of me but from what I remember and practice is this

If the clearance includes a SID I only have to read back the transponder code, Unless in the CFS under IFR procedures for that airport it states you must read back more.

If a SID isn't included in the clearance it must be read back verbatum

[ahramin]

Obviously if ATC wants a full readback, you need to do so.

[4blue]

haha.. I always love hearing this from ATS

ATS: "ATC Clears abc123 to CXYZ via FPR, maintain five thousand, depart runway 44 on course, squawk 1234"
Me: "ATC Clears abc123 to CXYZ via FPR, maintain five thousand, depart runway 44, squawk 1234"
ATS: "That was depart runway 44 _on course_"

Well, where the hell else would I go? Would I depart 44 and go "not on course"?

I understand the "verbatim" bit but still...

Or when I get controllers that don't adhere to the standard order...

ATS: "ATC clears abc123 to CXYZ via FPR, squawk 1234, maintain 5000, etc."

I expect things in a certain order, and I get thrown off when they don't come in the standard order.

[NJ]

I have seen investigations based on not catching incorrectly readback clearances. It's a pretty important thing.