Whats With YYZ Lately??

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Tue May 05, 2009 10:11 pm

Anyone else notice things have not been as usual the last few days? Using the 15/33's with light winds and the other runways apparently not closed for maintenance. Also multiple runway changes during departure and arrivals. Is the tower on a work to rule and trying to make things run less than smooth even by YYZ standards?

Pratt X 3 · Post by **Pratt X 3** » Tue May 05, 2009 10:42 pm

090178 CYYZ TORONTO/LESTER B.PEARSON INTL
CYYZ RWY 05/23 CLSD DUE MAINT
0905011100 TIL 0905152200

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:24 am

The 05/23 closure has been playing havoc with YYZ operations for a while now. We were issued a flow time on a Sunday and arrived to a pretty quite airport.

Flying Low · Post by **Flying Low** » Wed May 06, 2009 12:23 pm

Also multiple runway changes during departure and arrivals.

This is nothing new. My record is four runway changes after contacting the arrival controller! Am I being optomistic hoping YYZ has their act together by the time my leave of absence ends???

Canoehead · Post by **Canoehead** » Wed May 06, 2009 1:22 pm

I lost count at about 18 airplanes lined up for 33L departure this morning around 0930. The poor controller was sounding pretty maxed out working 128.8. There needs to be some flexibility from the GTAA when they want half the airport shut down for maintenance (ie: suspend noise abatement). The politics at that place astounds me. What a goat screw.

IFRATC · Post by **IFRATC** » Wed May 06, 2009 3:26 pm

Bitch to the GTAA for the runway closure. We are working our asses off to get aircraft in and out of here. 23/05 means we are limited with multiple runway options depending on winds. We cannot dual arrival on 24L/06R and 24R/06L because of their proximity. Basically we are restricted to ONE arrival runway and ONE departure runway. Occassional turboprop offloads are going to 15R (Visual only). Acceptance rates are way lower with the north parallel closed regardless of other runway configs. Your multiple runway changes by us coming in here is purely tactical. Wherever we can put someone we will to free up spacing and holds. The lines may be long, but thats NOT our fault. rest assured guys down here are working real hard to move metal as quick as they can. Remember, 3 or 4 runway changes might be a pain in the ass but it is tactical to reduce holding times or increased spacing.

IFRATC

Canoehead · Post by **Canoehead** » Wed May 06, 2009 5:32 pm

Hey no worries. Most of us understand that you folks do the best job you can given the ball and chain attached to you called the GTAA...
We don't have the big picture for the most part, and we have to trust that you are not only keeping us separated safely, but also doing it as efficient as possible.
My biggest gripe with YYZ is the excessive taxiing we must do there... not ATC fault but a design flaw/shortsightedness issue from the beginning of the airport. I know that you folks always try to change us from planned taxiing from the East Beach to 23 to go to CMH/CLE/PIT etc. to the south end, and we sure appreciate that.
I wish you guys could come ride in the J/S with us again. I need to get into your office for a visit myself...
CH- a Dash dude...

whistlerboy02 · Post by **whistlerboy02** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:29 pm

Criusing at 8,500 from Montreal to London. called in east of Oshawa... got a cylinder cracking decent to 2500 and asked to hurry up! then sent over city center... If they were using 36 I might have understood but they werent...... just not willing to work 150kt VFR traffic as usual... I'd love one of them to ride along with me one day and see what it feels like to go from a cruise in smooth clear air that it took me 30 mins to climb up to and decend down into the bumps and haze for the last 3rd of the trip.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:53 pm

I understand you ATC boys are doing your best, but goddamn! What a friggin gong show today!!!

NJ · Post by NJ » Wed May 06, 2009 10:08 pm

Fam flights and tower visits are valuable and should be compulsory for controllers and pilots. There's a lot you learn on the other side of the radio.

IFRATC · Post by **IFRATC** » Thu May 07, 2009 6:54 am

Along with the crippling runway config we are dealing with for the next little while, other issues were at the forefront yesterday as well. Lets just say they were technical and had a large impact on movements.
As for the VFR gripe. There is NO runway 36 first off. Secondly, if we are on 06R or 06L we may just be departing 33L. VFR aircraft have to be underneath the arrival/departure corridors. Simple, stay at 8.5 and steer clear of YYZ TCU. We can be busy as hell but you will still get flight following regardless of altitude. 8.5VFR just ain't going to work if departures are climbing out right at you off 06L especially if you are near YOO. Common sense. I guess we could retrict or move 25 departures out of your way until you are west of YYZ. NOT. Oh and then we will force arrivals below the glidepath and underneath YOU at 8.5 on the west side. NOT. Depending on the config. bedpost altitudes are between 60 to 100T. You could surely appreciate how 8.5 does not work.
IFR traffic into satellite airports like YKZ and YTZ etc. are restricted to 60 or 50T depending on direction. These include Q400s, DHC8, Global Express, etc. Bottom line is they have to get underneath YYZ inbounds period.

IFRATC

MUSKEG · Post by **MUSKEG** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:10 am

Funniest thing I ever heard on the radio was in Calgary during the work slow down by controllers about 10/12 years ago. A Delta widebody after being in que for over an hour (controllers were allowing one arrival or one T/O every 5 minutes) commented to controller that it must be real busy. Well the controller bit and replied yes it was. Tell you what Delta replied, I'll bring one of our controllers from O'hare over and you can all go home. You could here laughter on the voices for quite awhile after that. Sorry for the Hi-jack, but sometimes what we think is hard work is just childs play when compared to other places.

Ghost Rider · Post by **Ghost Rider** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:21 am

MUSKEG wrote:Funniest thing I ever heard on the radio was in Calgary during the work slow down by controllers about 10/12 years ago. A Delta widebody after being in que for over an hour (controllers were allowing one arrival or one T/O every 5 minutes) commented to controller that it must be real busy. Well the controller bit and replied yes it was. Tell you what Delta replied, I'll bring one of our controllers from O'hare over and you can all go home. You could here laughter on the voices for quite awhile after that. Sorry for the Hi-jack, but sometimes what we think is hard work is just childs play when compared to other places.

On a note related to the above post

What differences are there between YYZ , and say Gatwick ..
Even with YYZ running the 33s, EGLL has one runway, and seems to easily accommodate as much if not more traffic than YYZ on a busy day .. and you should see LGW during the peaks
I am sure that LGW has just as restrictive noise policies, if not more

Ideas?

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:29 am

I think an aircraft carrier comes close to beating everybody during carrier qualifications, and that's with an 1100' deck.

This is fun to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsQIaDSBaP8

IFRATC · Post by **IFRATC** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:47 am

Its not as simple as you all think. You have to factor airspace structure. Adjacent sectorization. US airspace, satellite airport structures. Runways and controllers don't necessarily equate to the amount of metal you can move in and out of an airport. If that were the case YYZ could move a hell of a lot more airplanes. US airspace is directly south of YYZ. The way departures and arrivals move around the terminal area is affected by airports such as Detroit, and even the traffic flow off the eastern seaboard. THAT is a direct result of how the FAA dictates their flows. Yet they have NO problem offloading US traffic north when they are saturated due to weather or other factors. This impacts our flow on a daily basis. The powers that be at National flow always accept US offloads because it generates more revenue regardless of the impact on our own operation. Traffic movement is not as simple as you all might think.

IFRATC

IFRATC · Post by **IFRATC** » Thu May 07, 2009 8:50 am

MUSKEG,
Childs play? Really? Come on. Although it does feel like working in a day care dealing with some of you guys.

IFRATC

MUSKEG · Post by **MUSKEG** » Thu May 07, 2009 10:46 am

You know what I meant. We are over regulated, and over protected. From your comments it appears everything works only one way. USA airspace immediately to the south, well Canada airspace is just north, and you think you have overlapping sectors, and they don't? Don't get into an arguement about who moves more iron, that is one battle you will loose. There is still a civil service mindset amongst the old dogs and that is detrimental to efficiency.

C-FABH · Post by **C-FABH** » Thu May 07, 2009 11:13 am

Blame someone else! Blame someone else!

whistlerboy02 · Post by **whistlerboy02** » Thu May 07, 2009 5:25 pm

IFRATC I do appreciate your reply to my post and all the others and your comments even though super sarcastic do shed light on the subject
Depending on the config. bedpost altitudes are between 60 to 100T
And I don't expect 20 jets to work around me as they climb and turn south but they could have worked me at 5500. with the other local stuff.... It's just from my perspective if a pilot "whatever he is flying" calls up to transit your airspace and ATC gives him and code and a clearence like that your bascially telling us to never come back.
I have taken your advice Simple, stay at 8.5 and steer clear of YYZ TCU
I sometime fly North of YYZ and go 1/2 mile outside of FLINE and then over Simcoe all at 8.5 or 9.5 and dont talk to anyone..... you guys vector enough metal across my windshield to make me realize I AM IN THE WAY.... but its payback and i am legal .....
But that said isnt it a shame that I sit there in my cockpit and you at the airport .... were both compitent and have the resource at our fingertips..... but we dont talk.... just due to past bad experiences???? mine with ATC and you with bad pilots

IFRATC · Post by **IFRATC** » Fri May 08, 2009 5:38 am

Whistlerboy,
I understand your frustration as well. Your points are quite valid and to be honest I would do the same. Being pushed down to 2.5VFR is not by accident though. It was for a reason. Next time ask. You have every right to ask why you are being forced down so low. Watch yourself over YSO at 8.5 though!!! There is alot of metal decending through you there and alot of them heavies!!!

IFRATC

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Fri May 08, 2009 6:53 am

IFRATC,

I understand the limitations of the Canadian system, and to a certain point the "resistance" in the GTA to facilitate the transit of VFR traffic. But - and this is NOT an attack on any individual or group - I seriously think YYZ suffers from Biggest airport in the country syndrome.

I regularly fly my CJ6a - a VFR airplane - in the USA traveling from one airshow to the next. Unlike Canada - who's terminal controlled airspace extend to 12500' - in the USA most (if not all) major terminal controlled airspace tops at or around 7000' and some less busy terminal area top at 4000'. Which allows a corridor of uncontrolled airspace of 5 500' or more before reaching the mid levels for VFR airplanes to travel totally uncontrolled.

It is 100% legal (in the USA) to fly at 7500' directly over JFK squawking 1200 chatting with your friends on the air to air frequency. I have flown many formation flights (of 3 or four airplanes) in VFR above the Greater NewYork area, the Philadelphia area and even the Washington area (pre 9/11 of course) without ANY ATC control (even if we are monitoring their frequency. Efficient yes, stupid I am not). And not only am I still here, but no passenger on any airliner/corporate jet was ever in danger. You can regularly hear ATC pass along traffic information on us to airliners who are amaze to see four planes dragging smoke (we love to make big iron pilots realise we are having much more fun then they are

). Realistically, there is much more traffic in any of the 3 NY airport (JFK, LGA or EWR) than in YYZ, (never mind all three airports combined) and yet we can safely/legally fly overhead there airports a 7500' without any ATC control. What makes YYZ so different? It is only one airport with less traffic than NY terminal. Why is it that VFR pilots are instructed by ATC to avid this area as if they were infected with some sort of aviation disease that could kill all the industry? I mean common, why was there a once CYR around YYZ? (most of you don't remember, but YYZ was once a CYR where no one could enter but the chosen few...) Those are all rhetorical questions. Question I can only stipulate on.

I think the issue with Canada is one of culture. For some reason that is unknown to most here (myself included), TC decided a long long time ago that terminal controlled airspace would go to 12500'. Most VFR pilots were tough to avoid it as it was "reserved for the big boys" and most of us did avoid it for we dared not go against our instructor's wisdom. This in turn only created a low level of VFR traffic in these airspace which caused the IFR route designers to use that airspace for other uses, mainly STARs. I fly to a lot of places in this world (I also fly a CL64 and went to YYZ 5 times in the last week so I'm a bit familiar with the issues of the closure of 05/23) and have rarely seen STARs or even SIDs designed in the same way YYZ has theirs. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but from the seat where I sit I find it very weird that a STAR has me fly directly overhead the airport... or that a SID requires me to make a 2degree heading change (measure with a micrometer, cut with an axe...) at a specific DME... But to someone else who mostlikely has a lot of experience in a different seat than mine, it makes a lot of sense to have me look out the window and count the airplanes on the ramp before I land, so I don't argue with him.

Anyway, culture can be changed. The only thing needed is one ATC to, on a bright VFR day, accommodate a poor guy to transit through YYZ without having him play yo-yo and we have created a precedent. Others could/would follow suit and soon all could/would live in harmony... one can always dream. General aviation is not a disease, it is the back bone of our industry.

Cheers mate and best of luck until rwy 05/23 opens.

F

edited 3 times for fat fingers syndrome

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri May 08, 2009 7:26 am

Ditto. I fly in the USA a lot - both IFR and VFR - and the best
place to be, when you are transitioning a large, busy airport,
is directly overhead.

In the USA, I have yet to see a Boeing or Airbus depart or
arrive vertically at an airport. I presume that because of the
colder temperatures, the air is denser in Canada, permitting
vertical departures and arrivals of large aircraft, because the
controlled airspace over a so-called "busy" airport in Canada
extends vertically upwards for over 10 miles, to 60,000 feet

If anyone has a link to a youtube video of a Boeing or an
Airbus arriving over CYYZ at FL600, then half-rolling inverted,
then pulling to a vertical downline, likely going supersonic
directly overhead CYYZ, then pulling enormous G to land,
it would be interesting to watch.

... · Post by **...** » Fri May 08, 2009 1:30 pm

Rockie wrote:I think an aircraft carrier comes close to beating everybody during carrier qualifications, and that's with an 1100' deck.

This is fun to watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsQIaDSBaP8

True. and thanks for the great vid. It made me get excited about "crank & bank" flying again.

----------------break--------------------------------

I KNOW for a fact the CYYZ people both in the Centre and in the Tower do care about doing the best job with regards to aircraft movement and go out of their way with trying to expedite flow with the legal tools they are allowed to use, because I've seen it for myself 1 1/2 years ago with a personal tour of the facilities.

Not only are they professionals, they are great people that went out of their way to show me the ops when they didn't have to at a busy time of the night. People taking their breaks away from the screen would get up and give up their break to meet me and show me around. I felt privileged.

I also gained a better understanding how things worked and WHY they do what they did with regards to runway changes etc etc.... It was an eye opener for sure. Up until recently I used to operate out of YYZ very often with sked runs with a small company. I got to know their individual voices and I think they got to know mine and they provided us with tighter vectors to final in VFR conditions because I can only assume it was understood that we could accommodate such maneuvers. For that, AND that alone shaved off 15 maybe 20 minutes of our 15 hour dutyday, something JFK can't do.

To say CYYZ is mechanical with regulations and aircraft movement, is inaccurate.
Very inaccurate.

whistlerboy02 · Post by **whistlerboy02** » Fri May 08, 2009 6:08 pm

Way Da go Bird dog we had all made up and were friends again... IFRATC, Fouga, and Hedley were all holding hands a walking into the sunset...... and now your poking us with a stick
when birddog said:
To say CYYZ is mechanical with regulations and aircraft movement, is inaccurate.
Very inaccurate.
I would agree that it is staffed by great individuals, but I cant agree with you comment above.

tailgunner · Post by **tailgunner** » Sat May 09, 2009 9:42 am

IFRATC, I can appreaciate the efforts that you guys and gals go through to move traffeic, however I think that either the policies or procedures in and out of YYZ need to be totally revamped.
O' Hare airport in Chicago, ( the 2nd busiest in the world) has a much improved departure plan. It is simple, and easy to use. They have 1 departure for ALL runways...It essentially says, fly the heading given until 5000 feet. They do not mess around with 2 degree heading changes at certain DME's. They just tell you what heading to fly, you are cleared for T/O and begin your turn at 400'. They move traffic because they stagger the headings to create separation between departures. This should be the plan for YYZ as well. It would probably reduce workload for controllers and pilots alike....

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