Question about logging time on privately operated airplane.

[chippy]

Situation:

A friend of mine has a family member who owns an anphib privately. They are going on a two week trip with this family memeber and want to build some anphib time. They have a CPL with float endorsement and no other float experience. The family member has over 1000 hours on floats and a PPL. They are wondering how they would be able to act and log PIC during the trip?

Would it just be a matter of getting checked out on type and getting on the insurance?

Would the family member be an acceptable person to do the checkout even tho they hold a PPL?

[AntiNakedMan]

What checkout are you talking about?

Suppose I had a PPL, float and multi. I could go out tomorrow, buy a Beech 18 on floats, hop in and take off. Heck, I could buy a Twin Otter on amphibs, hop in and go. For privately owned and registered aircraft, there is no requirement for a checkout.... insurance on the other hand....

Anti

[Tim]

If by checkout you mean someone to make sure he knows when and how to move all the switches and levers, the 1000hr family member would be a good person to sit in while your friend went up to get familiar with it, but like Anti said, no 'checkout' required.

[HS-748 2A]

What checkout are you talking about?

Suppose I had a PPL, float and multi. I could go out tomorrow, buy a Beech 18 on floats, hop in and take off. Heck, I could buy a Twin Otter on amphibs, hop in and go. For privately owned and registered aircraft, there is no requirement for a checkout.... insurance on the other hand....

Anti

Actually, I don't think that's quite true. For PPL, I think you are limited to 7 or 8 pax and a certain gross weight. Otherwise you need a CPL to 'endorse' you on each type.

Just going from memory here. I might be wrong or the rules may have changed.

[200hr Wonder]

And yes he could act as PIC even with the more experienced family member in the plane. There is no rule about who logs PIC. Provided of course that the insurance man is happy, you just have to decide who is the PIC for each leg and have a good time. Essentially the same situation as two PPLs sharing a x-country trip, whoever is decided to be PIC for each leg is. Just no changing half way through a leg.

[fougapilot]

Actually, I don't think that's quite true. For PPL, I think you are limited to 7 or 8 pax and a certain gross weight.

HS,

Not quite true. There is NO pax limits nor weight limits for a Private pilot. Private pilots can fly any airplanes rated on their licenses.

401.26 The holder of a private pilot licence - aeroplane may act as

(a) pilot-in-command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of a class and type in respect of which the licence is endorsed with ratings;

(b) pilot-in-command of an ultra-light aeroplane; and

(c)pilot-in-command or co-pilot of any aircraft for the sole purpose of the holder's flight training or flight test...

full text here: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#401_26

No mention of weight or passenger limits. Back in the day when we had our Fouga Magister (a french military jet), my partner flew it solo with his private licence all the time since the only requirement to fly a high performance airplane (other than the training on type) is a Private Pilot Licence and 200hrs PIC.

Cheers,

F

[Prairie Chicken]

foug's right. Us 'older' folks recall the GTOW limits on a ppl & even CPL, but those days a gone.

[fougapilot]

For privately owned and registered aircraft, there is no requirement for a checkout.... insurance on the other hand....

Anti,

close but no cigar mate

It is 100% correct to say that for single pilot/non high performance airplanes in privates hands there is no training requirements, things change when you cross that line. But to fly a 2 crew and/or high performance airplane (private or commercial) the pilot(s) must hold a type rating which is only issued after completing a training program.

I know, I know it doesn't really apply to the original question, but a nuance non the less.

Cheers mate,

F

[Cat Driver]

Chippy there is one very important factor that over rides all the rules in aviation and that factor is your and your future passengers safety.

Self preservation dictates that a clear thinking person will avail themselves of the best training you can find on any new aircraft type you are planning to fly.

Of all the airplane configurations the amphibian is the most risk prone type to fly due to the differences in the selection of the landing gear for the surface you are about to land on.

Get proper training right from the start and that will best help ensure you don't end up dead.

[HS-748 2A]

foug's right. Us 'older' folks recall the GTOW limits on a ppl & even CPL, but those days a gone.

Oh - Ok, so that was the rule at one time though?

[chippy]

Your right, no "check-out" required, but as far as the insurance company goes does anyone have any idea of what they would want before letting someone other than the owner act as PIC?

[Cat Driver]

Your right, no "check-out" required, but as far as the insurance company goes does anyone have any idea of what they would want before letting someone other than the owner act as PIC?

They will require xx hours on amphibian aircraft or a check out with xx hours dual from a qualified amphibian pilot.

[chippy]

Thanks Cat

[skymarc]

I had 1500 tt and 1200 on type and was asked for 25 hours on amphibs including float rating with a check pilot before going solo by the insurance Co when I put my C185 on amphibs.

[Cat Driver]

I had 1500 tt and 1200 on type and was asked for 25 hours on amphibs including float rating with a check pilot before going solo by the insurance Co when I put my C185 on amphibs.

That sounds about the norm.

Amphibs are the highest accident risk of any configuration.

[fougapilot]

Oh - Ok, so that was the rule at one time though?

Absolutely correct, but that was back in the day we had to do a Senior Commercial before we got our ATPL. It all went out the window with the old ANOs. For the younger crowd around here (gees, even I make myself feel old... ), before the CARs came into effect in the mid 90s, we had the Air Navigation Orders aka ANOs. You think the CARs are complicated? They are 1000th times easier to read than the old ANOs ever were.

[old fart]

Chippy,

I have a question. Why do they want to log PIC? Will it be used towards an ATPL? Will it be used to upgrade or obtain any TC licence or permit? Is it just for insurance requirements?

If it will be presented to TC for any reason, the "instructor" needs a minimum CPL. (CARS 425.21) If they are presenting these hours to TC for any reason and claiming PIC, they would have to sign the journey log. If they sign the journey log, then they are ultimately responsible for the aircraft, thus they are PIC. If the owner is the one signing the journey log, then the owner is PIC. If TC is in doubt of the hours, they will simply ask them to obtain copies of the journey log to verify that they were in fact PIC. If they can't prove it, the hours won't count. They cannot "act" as PIC and claim the hours if they didn't sign the logbook.
If however the hours are needed only for insurance purposes, then the training requirement will be mandated by the insurance company and they may well be happy with an arrangement with an experienced PPL holder.

[northern33]

Dumb question, but how exactly does a person get the high performance training required to fly a plane such as a Piper Saratoga? I've looked through the forums and the TC website, but was unable to find anything...

[northern33]

Ahhh, just found some information finally; CARS 421.40 (3)(c). That explains what I would have to do (i.e. >200 hours PIC, ground training and qualifying).

Just curious what network there is to find someone to perform the specific ground training on that type of aircraft.

Also, would it be TC's responsibility to find someone to witness the qualifying flight?

[propwashed]

A friend of mine installed amphibs, his insurer said they required a checkout. He told them he would be happy to do one but doesn't know anyone with amphibs, so they asked him if he would be comfortable giving himself a checkout. Haha.