Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

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Canoehead
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by Canoehead »

canwhitewolf wrote:Relatives Of Buffalo Crash Victim Sue Continental

The lawsuit filed Thursday in federal court alleges that the Continental Connection Dash 8 that crashed Feb. 12 in a Buffalo suburb had inadequate deicing equipment and was flown by an improperly trained crew. The suit names Continental, Pinnacle Airlines, and Colgan Air, along with Bombardier -- all of which have declined comment. Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 aircraft operate in frequently cold parts of the world. But attorney (and pilot) Ronald Goldman, acting on behalf of the victim's family, told Fox news that the aircraft's deicing system "cannot guarantee the safety of passengers on a commercial flight." He concludes that the aircraft therefore "should never be flown in these kinds of conditions." The NTSB has not yet offered its own conclusions and a full investigation by the board could take more than a year. Goldman says his legal team will conduct its own investigation and is seeking wrongful death damages, along with monetary compensation for any pain and suffering endured in the flight's final moments.

OH, WELL.... that settles it! Mr. Goldman is a PILOT! It's gonna be open and shut then! Imagine the knowledge this man will have on the subject! The plaintiffs should be proud to have secured the services of this '. Yeager' and 'Perry Mason' all-in-one!!!!

The system, "cannot guarantee the safety of passengers on a commercial flight."
That's right Einstein, just like any other system or component of an airplane cannot 'guarantee' anything!

"along with monetary compensation for any pain and suffering endured in the flight's final moments."
What a moron. I hope one cool, down-to-earth judge presides over this one.

I probably should have stopped reading the clip as soon as I saw the words 'FOX news' on it....
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by MUSKEG »

Canoehead. Can you please explain what Fox news has to do with the negativity of this lawsuit. It seems all the networks are reporting the exact same thing. Are you insinuating that Fox is making this up.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

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From: NTSB AVIATION LIST [mailto:AVIATION@LISTSERV.NTSB.GOV] On Behalf Of NTSB Press Releases
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:51 AM
To: AVIATION@LISTSERV.NTSB.GOV
Subject: UPDATE ON NTSB INVESTIGATION INTO CRASH OF COLGAN AIR DASH-8 NEAR BUFFALO, NEW YORK; PUBLIC HEARING SCHEDULED

************************************************************
NTSB ADVISORY
************************************************************

National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

March 25, 2009

************************************************************

UPDATE ON NTSB INVESTIGATION INTO CRASH OF COLGAN AIR
DASH-8 NEAR BUFFALO, NEW YORK; PUBLIC HEARING SCHEDULED

************************************************************

In its continuing investigation into the crash of Colgan Air flight 3407 in Clarence Center, New York, the National Transportation Safety Board has released the following factual information.

On February 12, 2009, about 10:17 p.m. Eastern Standard Time (EST), a Colgan Air Inc., Bombardier Dash 8-Q400, N200WQ, d.b.a. Continental Connection flight 3407, crashed during an instrument approach to runway 23 at the Buffalo-Niagara International Airport (BUF), Buffalo, New York. The crash site was approximately 5 nautical miles northeast of the airport in Clarence Center, New York, and mostly confined to one residential house. The 4 crew members and 45 passengers were fatally injured and the airplane was destroyed by impact forces and post crash fire. There was one ground fatality. Night visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident. The flight was a Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 121 scheduled passenger flight from Liberty International Airport (EWR), Newark, New Jersey to Buffalo.

The NTSB has voted to conduct a public hearing on this accident. The hearing, which will be held May 12 - 14, 2009, at the NTSB's Board Room and Conference Center in Washington, D.C., will cover a wide range of safety issues
including: icing effect on the airplane's performance, cold weather operations, sterile cockpit rules, crew experience, fatigue management, and stall recovery training. The public hearing is part of the Safety Board's efforts to develop all appropriate facts for the investigation.

"The tragedy of flight 3407 is the deadliest transportation accident in the United States in more than 7 years," Acting Chairman Mark V. Rosenker, who will chair the hearing, said.
"The circumstances of the crash have raised several issues that go well beyond the widely discussed matter of airframe icing, and we will explore these issues in our investigative fact-finding hearing."

The hearing will be held "en banc," meaning that all Members of the NTSB will sit on the Board of Inquiry. Parties that will participate in the hearing will be announced at a later time.

The aircraft wreckage has been moved from the accident site to a secure location for follow-on inspections as may be needed.

A preliminary examination of the airplane systems has revealed no indication of pre-impact system failures or anomalies. Investigators will perform additional examinations on the dual distribution valves installed in the airplane's de-ice system. The de-ice system removes ice accumulation from the leading edges of the wings, horizontal tail, and vertical tail through the use of pneumatic boots.
The dual distribution valves, which transfer air between the main bleed air distribution ducts and the pneumatic boots, were removed from the airplane for the examination.
The airplane maintenance records have been reviewed and no significant findings have been identified at this time.
The ATC group has completed a review of recordings of controller communications with the flight crew during the accident flight and conducted interviews with air traffic controllers on duty at the time of the accident. The group has no further work planned at this time.

Further review of the weather conditions on the night of the accident revealed the presence of variable periods of snow and light to moderate icing during the accident airplane's approach to the Buffalo airport.

Examination of the FDR data and preliminary evaluation of airplane performance models shows that some ice accumulation was likely present on the airplane prior to the initial upset event, but that the airplane continued to respond as expected to flight control inputs throughout the accident flight. The FDR data also shows that the stall warning and protection system, which includes the stick shaker and stick pusher, activated at an airspeed and angle-of-attack (AOA) consistent with that expected for normal operations when the de-ice protection system is active. The airplane's stick shaker will normally activate several knots above the actual airplane stall speed in order to provide the flight crew with a sufficient safety margin and time to initiate stall recovery procedures. As a result of ice accumulation on the airframe, an airplane's stall airspeed increases. To account for this potential increase in stall speed in icing conditions, the Dash 8-Q400's stall warning system activates at a higher airspeed than normal when the de-ice system is active in-flight to provide the flight crew with adequate stall warning if ice accumulation is present.

Preliminary airplane performance modeling and simulation efforts indicate that icing had a minimal impact on the stall speed of the airplane. The FDR data indicates that the stick shaker activated at 130 knots, which is consistent with the de-ice system being engaged. FDR data further indicate that when the stick shaker activated, there was a 25-pound pull force on the control column, followed by an up elevator deflection and increase in pitch, angle of attack, and Gs. The data indicate a likely separation of the airflow over the wing and ensuing roll two seconds after the stick shaker activated while the aircraft was slowing through 125 knots and while at a flight load of 1.42 Gs.
The predicted stall speed at a load factor of 1 G would be about 105 knots. Airplane performance work is continuing.
Since returning from on-scene, the Operations & Human Performance group has conducted additional interviews with flight crew members who had recently flown with and/or provided instruction to the accident crew, as well as personnel at Colgan Air responsible for providing training of flight crews and overseeing the management and safety operations at the airline. The group also conducted interviews with FAA personnel responsible for oversight of the Colgan certificate, which included the Principal Operations Inspector (POI) and aircrew program manager for the Dash 8 Q-400. The team has also continued its review of documentation, manuals, and other guidance pertaining to the operation of the Dash 8 Q-400 and training materials provided to the Colgan Air flight crews.

The Operations & Human Performance group continues to investigate and review documentation associated with the flight crew's flight training history and professional development during their employment at Colgan as well as prior to joining the company.

Post-accident toxicological testing of the flight crew was performed by the FAA Civil Aerospace Medical Institute
(CAMI) toxicology lab. Specimens taken from the first officer were negative for alcohol, illicit substances, and a wide range of prescription and over the counter medications.
Specimens taken from the captain were negative for alcohol and illicit substances, and positive for diltiazem, a prescription blood pressure medication that had been reported to and approved for his use by the Federal Aviation Administration.

The Safety Board is also examining several other areas potentially related to the accident, including:

? The circumstances of a recent event involving a Dash
8-Q400, operated by Colgan Air, in which the airplane's stick shaker activated during approach to the Burlington International Airport (BTV) in Burlington, Vermont. A preliminary review of the FDR data from that flight shows the momentary onset of the stick shaker during the approach phase of flight. The airplane subsequently landed without incident. NTSB investigators have conducted interviews with the pilots and check airman on board this flight and will continue to investigate the incident.

? Reports of airplane deviations resulting from
distortion of the instrument landing system (ILS) signal for runway 23 at BUF. There is an existing Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) related to this distortion condition. To date, investigation into these reports has not revealed any connection to the accident flight.
-30-

Media Contact: Keith Holloway, (202) 314-6100 Keith.Holloway@ntsb.gov




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For questions/problems, contact pubinq@ntsb.gov
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by SaskStyle »

The FDR data indicates that the stick shaker activated at 130 knots, which is consistent with the de-ice system being engaged. FDR data further indicate that when the stick shaker activated, there was a 25-pound pull force on the control column, followed by an up elevator deflection and increase in pitch, angle of attack, and Gs.
:shock:
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by Flying Low »

The FDR data indicates that the stick shaker activated at 130 knots, which is consistent with the de-ice system being engaged. FDR data further indicate that when the stick shaker activated, there was a 25-pound pull force on the control column, followed by an up elevator deflection and increase in pitch, angle of attack, and Gs.
Wow...that should only be attempted accompanied by 100-pound push force on both throttles! :shock:
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by Canoehead »

MUSKEG wrote:Canoehead. Can you please explain what Fox news has to do with the negativity of this lawsuit. It seems all the networks are reporting the exact same thing. Are you insinuating that Fox is making this up.

Sorry Muskeg, just saw your post here...
You are correct, FOX was one of several outlets reporting the story. My impression however of FOX is that they are sensationalist opportunists that love reporting on this kind of junk news (even if it is factual, it makes my blood boil). Not that there are many news outlets anymore with complete integrity, but given this past weekends' garbage on 'Redeye' (again, FOX), I think I can rest my case. But, who can blame them. They are in it to make money however they can, and even at the expense of 'integrity'.

For what it is worth, I am a 'right wing' type of person, but see much more integrity in the 'left wing' news corporations.

As for the news released from the FAA, it sounds more and more like the crew simply got in over their heads :(
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by officejet »

As for the news released from the FAA, it sounds more and more like the crew simply got in over their heads :
Seriously?????? :?

I was the first to jump on here in defense of the crew saying wait until initial results come out before you crucify them.

But...

Losing situational awareness to the point where you stall a plane and then pull instead of pushing...that's not in over your head...that's f**king it up.

Well I guess it is over their heads by the fact that it happened...but night approaches in shitty weather are common in North American winter ops. If that's "over your head" you have no right to be driving that plane. But given the fact that our operators are now hiring lower and lower experienced pilots...maybe "over your head" will become an accepted term by the number crunchers in aviation. :roll:

If they had pulled that stunt in the sim....I would expect there to be a flight freeze, a good tounge lashing from instructor, and MAYBE a re-ride....i would hope that the captain would be put back in the right seat to think about things for a little longer.

Now all that rant is based on the premise that they let the plane slow down and when they got a stall warning, didn't react properly...if the investigation reveals other factors and a different story...so be it.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by Canoehead »

officejet wrote: Seriously?????? :?
Seriously.
If they weren't 'over their heads', this thread wouldn't exist, and 50 lost souls would still be alive.

(And I should edit my original comment and remove "FAA" and replace it with "NTSB" regarding the press release.)
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by officejet »

Canoehead wrote:
officejet wrote: Seriously?????? :?
Seriously.
If they weren't 'over their heads', this thread wouldn't exist, and 50 lost souls would still be alive.

(And I should edit my original comment and remove "FAA" and replace it with "NTSB" regarding the press release.)

I acknowledged that...I'm not disagreeing with you that they were in "over their heads"

And for the record as well...I'm the last person to randomly slam a crew...look back a few pages and you'll see me taking a pretty adamant stand against those doing so...

But I'm also a professional and will take my licks if I screw up and because of the high personal expectations, I have similar expectations of others.

My problem with the term "in over their heads" is as follows....

IF...they lost situational awareness and let the plane slow to the point where the plane woke them up with stall warnings...that's a big mistake.

IF...when the bells and whistles and stick shakers going off resulted in a "pull"...that's another big mistake.

I agree with you 100% they were in over their heads.

But it was a created situation. There was no surprise mechanical or extenuating circumstance that put them "in over their head." A night approach in icing conditions is pretty SOP for an airline pilot in Canada/US don't you agree????

a) night - added workload...but thats part of our job - if you're not comfortable operating at night, don't become an airline captain/fo.
b) poor weather - added workload...but thats part of our job - if you're not comfortable operating in marginal conditions, don't become an airline captain/fo. (I think it actually said that it was VFR???????)

I'm not too sure what other factors outside of the ice that they were picking up would have contributed to them losing focus on task at hand to the point where they stalled the bloody plane.

If they can't handle the workload then they should NOT be in control of that aircraft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have all the compassion in the world for the crew's friends and families and for the friends and families of the rest of the passengers. That's the only reason I'm taking the time to discuss the issue...these sort of tragedies are avoidable....

My personal belief is that there is going to be a whole lot more of this. I feel that due to the years of experience that pilots have contributed to the industry have led to those at the top patting themselves on the back a little too much and instead of giving credit to the crews driving the planes day in and day out....instead they are giving credit to the technological wonders of simulation. This in turn has convinced them to convince the TSB TC whoever that putting low time pilots in big machines with lots of lives is safe...because the numbers work.

And they're right...the numbers have worked....but those numbers are skewed because of the fact that the guys/gals flying for the airlines for the last 20 years have a lot of experience. Start putting newbies at the controls, and for 98% of the flights they will operate them proficiently.

But have stall warnings go off low level at night and you have someone pulling the controls instead of pushing?? That screams to me...anyways...inexperience.

But hey...they were just in over their heads... :?
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by vortac »

Reading more about the llikelihood of what happened, the lack of experience of the crew, and the airlines of today not caring about recruiting and paying the most experienced canditates for the job of flying transport category aircraft makes me cringe.

Congratulations to one such operator in Canada for hiring the latest group College grads in the last groundschool.
Morale in the cockpits must be REALLY high when you know your job is replaceable by a 200-500 hr light single engine piston pilot. Oh wait, their union even approved it so they must be proud.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by mattedfred »

Release #09.011
March 26, 2009

Irresponsible Journalism Interferes with NTSB Colgan Air 3407 Investigation

WASHINGTON – The Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA), does not ordinarily comment publicly during any National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) airline accident investigation to which the Association is a party. However, in response to several irresponsible news reports, including a story in USA Today, we feel that a public comment is not only necessary to balance the incorrect news stories, but it is also required to ensure that the investigative process is not interfered with or diverted.

“We urge the news media, and all who are affected by the Colgan Air Flight 3407 accident, to allow the investigation process to proceed without distraction from conjecture regarding the cause of the tragedy.

“On March 25, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) released certain facts resulting from the investigation in the context of announcing the date for its public hearing on the accident. None of the facts were conclusive as to a cause, nor did the NTSB allude to a specific cause.

“As our industry has learned time and again, a rush to judgment with the intent to assign blame, rather than to advance safety, in an airline accident investigation fails to determine the action necessary to prevent a similar tragedy from happening again.

“The goal of accident investigation, and the legacy of all those who lost their lives in this accident, must be to create a safer airline industry. We urge all involved to join the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l, in pursuing that goal.”

Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilots union, representing 52,250 pilots at 35 airlines in the United States and Canada.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by TAWS »

Congratulations to one such operator in Canada for hiring the latest group College grads in the last groundschool.
Morale in the cockpits must be REALLY high when you know your job is replaceable by a 200-500 hr light single engine piston pilot. Oh wait, their union even approved it so they must be proud.
Maybe so....but at least it was confirmed their license was legit on hiring.

Morale would REALLY be high if you know your job is replaceable by a con artist......

So I'd like to send a congratulations to more than one such operator in Canada.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by mattedfred »

the current CBA of said operator does not allow the union at said operator to approve or deny the hiring of any pilot. said union at said operator may have participated in an RA with said operator to determine whether the hiring of the pilots as previously mentioned posed a risk to flight safety.

don't confuse hiring criteria with training standards
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by alpha1 »

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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by MUSKEG »

Check out update on MSNBC news.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by linecrew »

vortac wrote:Reading more about the llikelihood of what happened, the lack of experience of the crew, and the airlines of today not caring about recruiting and paying the most experienced canditates for the job of flying transport category aircraft makes me cringe.

Congratulations to one such operator in Canada for hiring the latest group College grads in the last groundschool.
Morale in the cockpits must be REALLY high when you know your job is replaceable by a 200-500 hr light single engine piston pilot. Oh wait, their union even approved it so they must be proud.

Yikes! Well lets get a list of all incidents have been attributed to the fact that these guys/girls out of college are in the right seat. From what you're saying Jazz is no longer a safe operation because you might get a low timer in the right seat. The CADORS must be OVERFLOWING with reports of incompetency at the controls. My god!



...cough.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by MUSKEG »

Linecrew. You need to stay where your name says you are.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by linecrew »

LOL...I just got tired of the bs in the 15 pages of this thread and let a little out of the cage. My bad...y'all carry on with your thoughts/comments/love/hate.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by Finn47 »

NTSB´s public docket on this accident, including CVR transcripts, will be available online in less than an hour. Link given in this release:

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/090508b.html
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by Canoehead »

Hearings are available live online via the above link. The NTSB is pretty impressive with their multimedia.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by swordfish »

The link doesn't seem to work...?
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by Canoehead »

Not sure why, but I was able to watch the proceedings all morning with no interruption. I was also able to download some of the PDF files from the public docket, but then after a while, I started getting the same connection unavailable message.

Either the server is overwhelmed, or they have removed the public information. Too bad, because it makes the time pass if you can review documents while the panel is being asked the same question in a different way over and over again (by each board member).

They are really hung up on tail-plane stall vs. wing-stall. Also, it appears that DH give no guidance on de-ice running fast or slow during particular phases of flight.
Watching the animation in the opening of the proceeding today showed pretty clearly that the airspeed disappeared real fast. I think they said 50 knots in less than 20 seconds overall.

I think the next group of witnesses is test pilots from DH. Hope you can connect...
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by hawker driver »

Here is the link to the CVR transcript

http://www.ntsb.gov/dockets/aviation/dc ... 418693.pdf



Just a few interesting parts.



HOT-1
no but uh out of that six and a quarter two hundred fifty hours was uh part
one twenty one turbine. multi engine turbine.

HOT-2
yeah that's another thing. all the guys— @ came in to our when we
interviewed and he said oh yeah you'll all be upgraded in six months into
the Saab and blah ba blah ba blah and I'm thinking you know what. flying
in the northeast I've sixteen hundred hours. all of that in Phoenix how
much time do you think actual I had or any in in ice. I had more actual
time on my first day of IOE than I did in the sixteen hundred hours I had
when I came here.


HOT-2
no but all these guys are complaining they're saying you know how we
were supposed to upgrade by now and they're complaining I'm thinking
you know what? I really wouldn't mind going through a a winter in the
northeast before I have to upgrade to captain.

HOT-2
I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—
I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like
seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.
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Re: Continental Flt 3407 Crash at Buffalo/Niagra Intr'nal

Post by swordfish »

Same error as above with the .pdf link
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