2nd interview - Ornge

[Brown Bear]

loves you..

[ng78]

Hey Brown Bear, it's reactions like yours why most people look at me funny when I bring up Avcanada. Now give your head a shake and let's get back to reality.

Do you suppose that unemployment is better, or working for half the amount somewhere else that doesn't happen to have a bond? Let's be realistic here and think of the real world - would you rather bite the bullet, take the risk and take a far better job, or swallow your pride and work at an inferior place and not pay a bond? I think getting paid 20 or 30K is a far bigger kick in the nuts.

Any rational thoughts or is this a waste of time?

[Brown Bear]

ng78, if you feel it's Okay to pay for a job, to give a government funded operation that can afford to pay their pilots well, and can't run without milking idiots out of 10K of daddy's money, then I have nothing but contempt for you. You are dead wrong.....and part of the problem.
THE END

[ng78]

And I'm telling you that I strongly disagree with bonds as well, but as I stated previously, I also strongly disagree with crappy working conditions, disgusting pay, and shitty management. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to change this until the numbers change. There are simply far too many pilots and the companies can get away with such practices. The only thing that we as pilots can do right now is bite the bullet for now, but at least we know which companies to support in the future when things improve for us. That's when we have the upper hand and that's when we can actually make a difference.

For now, I'd rather take a relatively secure job that pays well and offers strong benefits who happens to have a bond, over shitty companies with shit pay, whether they have bonds or not.

[Sulako]

Brown Bear, that's Strike 1 for your ursine self. It's unacceptable for a guy to come on here and ask about a second interview and get a post like yours in return. You made your point earlier, no need to get completely psychotic.

[Brown Bear]

I get the hint Sully......delete it for me....and your quote as well.

loves everybody. Nothing wrong with bonds. Let's hear it for Ornge! It's only 10K. What a wonderful opportunity! Brand new single engine airplanes flown by pilots with rich parents. What a success story! And, they were able to put this wonderful thing together with only 260 million dollars. They NEED your 10K! Sure wish I had 10 grand to spend on a PC12 job. I could buy a 737 type for just a little more, but what fun would that be?
Perhaps I was a little rude. But come on. I wouldn't even drink beer with these guys. And I drink beer with Dallas Cowboys fans. And I'm a BEAR!

[Cat Driver]

Cat Driver would rather take a $30,000 a year job with no bond than a $50,000 a year job with a $10,000 bond.

No that is not what I said, my position is the wages in aviation are low because pilots will walk all over anyone to work for low wages.

Bonds were brought into the industry because to many pilots took advantage of to many companies.

$30,00.00 a year will not even come close to covering my expenses.

[Just another canuck]

flown by pilots with rich parents.

I really don't know where this comes from... you and a couple others always quote "Daddy's money..." It's really not that hard to get a loan... especially if you can tell the bank, "Give me the loan and I get a job." In VAL's case, they'll walk into the bank with you. You gotta stop the rich parents thing... it just sounds silly.

Anyway, BB, you're right, the bond is ridiculous, but to say you wouldn't have a beer with these guys??? One of the best guys I've ever flown with works for VAL. He did what he had to do. I don't and never will think any less of him.

Hey Brown Bear, it's reactions like yours why most people look at me funny when I bring up Avcanada.

This is so true... I see you apologized and retracted your statement. That's great. But many of the pilots I know raise an eyebrow when I bring up avcanada. It is commonly referred to as poison. We all may have different opinions here and there but there's no need for rude behaviour. Plus, I've been a victim of it and it's not a good feeling. 'Nuff said.

Carry on.

I hate bonds too.

[NorthSky]

But one thing that is quite unique with aviation compared to other professions, is the fact that training costs are extraordinarily high.

Not true, One recent example: Toronto Police. They spend a bundle sending new hires to OPC in Alymer - they also have lots of guys leave to other forces. Guess what, no bond...

You're right though that aviation is unique, but only in the sense that it has a bunch of 'up and comers' willing to shell out Daddy's dough to get a step ahead.

Justify it all you want Inuitgifts. If ANYTHING goes south after they have your money in the first year, you will be the one on here warning others. Good luck. Oh yeah did you know they haven't turned a prop yet?

[acid_burn]

Ive got an interview with them soon. I am not going to accept the training bond idea. It works sometimes in certain situations. But for a government funded operation, they should just have a training contract in place where if you leave you have to pay the pro-rated share of the 10k owing...i dunno, that just sounds a little more 'real world' in the current economy. Some users have posted going to the bank for the 10k, good luck with that. The bank, even tho the interest rates are near 0, are holding onto their cash. Getting 10k, at least for me, is not going to happen.

Also Ive been hearing a lot of rumours about how many aircraft they are going to purchase...ive heard 6 planes (their website) and 20 planes from other users. Is ornge going to be based more in the northern areas??

[fingersmac]

There must be close to six parked in Thunder Bay right now.

[spartacus]

I'm appalled.

@#$! ORNGE.

Seriously, I had always thought that maybe one day the gov would see how shitty pilots get treated and try to fix it....instead....they keep the shit on going.

They'll get what they deserve I'm sure. Semi competent pilots with good credit ratings.

Pathetic.

[Doc]

I must agree with all the nasty things written about Ornge. I strongly believe this is a giant step backwards in the industry. Ornge, IMHO has reached a new low. They haven't turned a prop, and pilots are flocking to them like flies to a turd. I must wonder who these pilots left "high and dry" if they are current on PC12s? Poor show people. Really poor show on both sides.

[Donald]

I won't be canceling IFR for any of Ornge's aircraft. I can do some pretty long drawn out approaches. Just a form of protest, on my behalf.

So who gets penalized? The dumb-ass pilot who forked out 10K for their job, or the patient on thier way for potentially life saving treatment??

Use your head on this one...

[ng78]

I must agree with all the nasty things written about Ornge. I won't be canceling IFR for any of Ornge's aircraft. I can do some pretty long drawn out approaches. Just a form of protest, on my behalf.

This industry is so full of wonderful professionals!

[Doc]

This industry is so full of wonderful professionals!

Isn't it though?

[ng78]

It sure is doc! Give me a warm fuzzy feeling every day.

[Doc]

btw my plan is to be booted out of the interview in ummmm.....31 minutes....

We need more like you!

[Brown Bear]

ng78, would a "professional" buy a job? Always thought a professional was "paid" to do a job. Maybe I'm wrong......but I don't think so.....

[Donald]

I see that the professional moderater DOC had the decency to edit his post.

Is there a reason there is no note "this post edited at XXX, edited 1 time" at the bottom of the post, or is that a mod thing?

[Rog]

Doing a long drawn out approach and burning more of his employers fuel? While ornge sits there burning the fuel that your tax dollars paid for?

The only person you're screwing is yourself there "Doc". Double penetration style.

[Doc]

Okay Rog, you caught me. In real life, I'm a consummate gentleman. I cancel every time I can. I fly the fastest, shortest approaches I can get away with. I'll do the same for Ornge. Count on it.
It's just, I guess I got a little over heated on the subject. For that, I apologize. It's just that after spending countless years, and many thousands of hours in this business, the stunt Ornge is pulling is the lowest thing I've ever seen. I'm disappointed so many pilots seem so willing to let this "company" get away with this crap. Sure wish the media could somehow get hold of what is happening here.
Sure, I go on about "money up front" with VAL and Bearskin, but neither of these companies "milked" the tax payer out of many millions of dollars to start with. If Ornge is even half the "gold ring" so many of you think it is, why must you bring a cheque book to the interview. And, why the "cloak and dagger" with not being up front with the situation during the interviews?

[Lost Lake]

Much better post Doc. While I generally agree about the bond thing, there is a new grey area. Just like the swine flu, when an idea starts to spread, it is hard to stop it. In the past few years, pilots were jumping ship like crazy. Companies wanted some protection from the training costs lost. So they require a bond to work for them, presumably to protect their investment. Now hard times are upon the industry, and they have an overabundance of resumes. In order to find out who really wants to work for them (unfortunately, it becomes who is desperate enough to work for them), they make you pay a bond. Ornge listens to one of their biggest suppliers (VAL) about how bonds can stop pilots from leaving early, and maybe even make money if the pilot skips or is fired. Might be an easy way to help pay down their debt. I am digressing here, but unless every pilot in Canada decides not to accept cash up front jobs, this new idea will spread. Business is in the business of making money, not pilots.

Having said that, everyone with a vested interest in working for a government subsidized company in Ontario should be writting their MPP!! It is outrageous that they are trying this scam and even more outrageous that they will get away with it. It is basically some overpaid stuffed shirt in a high place grandstanding against pilots. Medics can be trained in a relatively short time and expense(Oh oh, I've opened the flood gates on this one) as compared to pilots. So he decides from the get go to show them who's boss. Come lick my boots, pay me a bond, and I might hire you. FU, who ever you are. I'd like to meet you in a dark alley sometime. You'll be lickin my boot when you pull it out!

Whoops, gettin upset, time to go now.

Unfortunately Doc, as much as I hate to say it, cash up front is here to stay, until times change. I sincerely feel sorry for the young guys today, who have paid a fortune for their licenses, only to find out that the only way they will be able to build time in the multi or single IFR world is to pay out more to get a job. It may not be right, but it is reality.

[baron_dude]

Why not write an editorial to a few major papers? I have no experience with this company so I can't, but if you want to get things changed this might be a good oportunity. I am sure no one in the general public is unaware of pilots having to pay a bond to work for a company and since this company is goverment run I am sure there would be some interest. Sadly complaining on a internet forum gets you nowhere, what you want is the media behind you! It seems that the Colgan crash is bringing some light to the pay of regional operators and the stress that brings. imagine what knowing you could be out 10,000$ will do to you. You will do pretty much whatever you are told if you are fearful for your job/career and of the pending doom of having to pay back that kinda money with no job. Anywho just an idea for some of you to think about.

[Phlyer]

My 'second interview' consisted of a job offer. I asked a few more questions and it turns out the sched is 4 on 4 off but then it switches from days to nights; always 12 hour shifts.
Not much of a life IMO, not to mention being stuck up north.
I then asked about this famous bond I've been hearing about; nothing for those with PC12 time but it is 10 large up front with no Pilatus time. I told them that even if I had 10g (which I don't) I certainly wouldn't give it to them for a job.
Hey Ornge - I know you read this forum - 240 million of taxpayers money - you can do a lot better!
Bye!