"Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"

Beacon · Post by **Beacon** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:02 pm

Reprinted from the Globe and Mail.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... 0/TPStory/

LIFE IN THE COCKPIT A 'RECIPE FOR AN ACCIDENT'

A hearing into a deadly crash near Buffalo, N.Y., casts a light on the threat posed by poorly paid, and often tired, junior pilots

JOSH WINGROVE

With a report from The Associated Press

May 14, 2009

An up-and-coming pilot with a commuter airline, Rebecca Shaw was paying her dues.

The 24-year-old old lived with her parents near Seattle, Wash., and worked at a coffee shop there on her days off. When the time came for her to fly, she commuted to work at Virginia-based Colgan Air.

As a copilot, she was paid $21 an hour, but only for flying time - not for layovers, typically in the New York area, or her cross-continent commute. She grossed $16,254 in her first year of work.

"I had gone back to visit with her, and she actually shared what she was making. 'Well, it's ... $1,000 a month, Mom,' " said her mother Lynn Morris, in an interview with a Washington news station yesterday. She had visited her daughter during a layover.
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"And I go, 'Well, how can you [afford] a crash pad in New York?' And to answer that question, she had done her thinking. Her plan was to get a hotel room when she needed to get one."

She could rarely afford one. To make ends meet, Ms. Shaw took naps in a staff lounge the company kept at Newark Liberty International Airport in New Jersey. She often joked that a couch in the room had her name on it, though the company insists it doesn't allow sleeping in the room.

Last February, Ms. Shaw reported for work once again. She flew red-eye from Seattle to New Jersey, stopping in Memphis, Tenn. She was tired and complaining of a cold when she boarded as the copilot of Continental Connection Flight 3407 operated by Colgan Air on Feb. 12. Hours later, the plane crashed into a Buffalo-area home, killing 50 people, including everyone aboard.

Yesterday, during the second of three days of hearings into the causes of the crash, National Transportation Safety Board officials explored the fatigue of pilot Marvin Renslow and his copilot, Ms. Shaw. They painted a worrying picture of the working conditions of pilots who commute cross-country and work around the clock for minimal pay.

"When you put together the commuting patterns, the pay levels, the fact that the crew rooms aren't supposed to be used [for sleeping] but are being used - I think it's a recipe for an accident, and that's what we have here," NTSB member Kitty Higgins said.

"People can't go live in these major cities, or even in the suburbs of these major cities, at $16,000 to $17,000 a year," added Paul Rice, vice-president of the Air Line Pilots Association.

Ms. Morris agreed the conditions were less than ideal, but said her daughter did the job to accumulate flight hours and work her way up to a coveted and highly-paid job as a national airline captain.

"My original thought is it's a wonderful opportunity to progress your career," Ms. Morris said yesterday.

Ms. Morris said the hearings, which have questioned the conduct of her daughter and Mr. Renslow, are making "scapegoats" of the pair. Mr. Renslow commuted from his home in Florida to work. There were suggestions he hadn't slept before the night of Flight 3407, the worst air crash in the United States in seven years.

Mary Finnegan, Colgan's vice-president of administration, said the company permits pilots to live anywhere in the country. NTSB investigators said 93 of the 137 Colgan pilots who worked out of Newark at the time of the accident were commuting from far away.

"It is their responsibility to commute in and be fit for duty," Ms. Finnegan said.

Daniel Morgan, Colgan's vice-president for flight safety, said the airline industry has a long history of flight crews commuting long distances to report for work.

"It's not an ideal way to work, but neither is working overnight in the post office."

Among those attending the hearings was Captain Barry Wiszniowski of the Air Canada Pilots Association. He said Canadian pilots don't typically commute as far as American ones, but added that everyone can learn from the case.

"The lessons from this tragic event, from Colgan Air Flight 3407, they are lessons the entire aviation industry can learn from," Mr. Wiszniowski said yesterday.

One Canadian industry veteran said small airlines pay their young pilots very little because they know the pilots need experience.

"They know they can afford to treat the people like crap, because if the people quit there are people standing in line to take their job," said the source. "I feel sorry for her, and her parents. She couldn't afford to come a day early, stay somewhere and do the trip well-rested."

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:22 pm

What an industry we have made for ourselves.....

stl

sepia · Post by **sepia** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:58 pm

sky's the limit wrote:What an industry we have made for ourselves.....

stl

Isn't that the truth. Anyone that dares to stand up is considered to be a trouble causer. I'm afraid to say that the junior level Canadian jobs make the American stuff look like a nice trip to the winter palace. At least no one at Colgan was forcing them out the door over weight, or with planes that hadn't seen proper maintenance.

square · Post by **square** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:03 pm

16000?? That would leave me with like 50 dollars a month takehome after covering just rent and utils at the crew house. Damn. Looks like Mr. Noodles for breakfast, lunch & dinner.

ditar · Post by **ditar** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:06 pm

What a joke. I think I made more bagging groceries in high school. And then we complain that we're not treated like professionals when we bend over and take it the way we do.

sepia · Post by **sepia** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:21 pm

ditar wrote:What a joke. I think I made more bagging groceries in high school. And then we complain that we're not treated like professionals when we bend over and take it the way we do.

The very first time I made more than I did working the ramp loading planes, was when I became a large turboprop captain. I can't count the number of levels that's wrong on.

Seriously, think about that for a second. I had 6 flying positions after my ramp job. They varied from 172 charters to large turboprop first officer. They forced me to travel to 5 different cities in 3 different provinces to get the jobs. None of these jobs ever paid what I used to make to load the planes. Yet I was more than willing to suck up pay cut after pay cut, demoralizing job after demoralizing job to advance. We're our own worst enemy.

canpilot · Post by **canpilot** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:25 pm

In no way am I advocating flying for a shit operation... and in no way am I saying all the pilots who made it to the top worked for shit operators.. I am more asking those who didn't.. how they managed to get to where they are..

What is the one greenhorn pilot supposed to do... Spend 100,000 + on training.. Get into the industry and find out they have to spend another 100,000 on an exit plan cause they decided to be the diamond in the rough (which typically entry level operators don't want) and refuse to degrade the industry.. Only to have another 10,000 " yes man" drivers work for the shit operators ..and eventually climb to the top..meanwhile pilot with ethics is out of a job back in school..

Just curious.....?

ilovelamp · Post by **ilovelamp** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:31 pm

Sadly I dont think it'll ever change.

ilovelamp · Post by **ilovelamp** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:36 pm

canpilot wrote:In no way am I advocating flying for a shit operation... and in no way am I saying all the pilots who made it to the top worked for shit operators.. I am more asking those who didn't.. how they managed to get to where they are..

What is the one greenhorn pilot supposed to do... Spend 100,000 + on training.. Get into the industry and find out they have to spend another 100,000 on an exit plan cause they decided to be the diamond in the rough (which typically entry level operators don't want) and refuse to degrade the industry.. Only to have another 10,000 " yes man" drivers work for the shit operators ..and eventually climb to the top..meanwhile pilot with ethics is out of a job back in school..

Just curious.....?

Million Dollar question.........I dont know maybe air canada's union and ALPA can take out ads in newspapers across canada telling the truth about the industry as oppose to the flight schools blowing smoke up your ass. That might help.

BigMac · Post by **BigMac** » Fri May 15, 2009 10:52 pm

i don't get the point of this article. do your job, do it well, don't like the wages, go to law school.

Radiohead · Post by **Radiohead** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:12 pm

Found this on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/200 ... ot.pay.cnn

Nark · Post by **Nark** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:32 pm

They forgot to mention that the $69 dollar fare they pay, also helps in the degradation of pilots pay.

karl08 · Post by **karl08** » Sat May 16, 2009 12:47 am

BigMac...suck it up eh? no thanks...its guys like you that gave me the main reason to cash out early...WAKE UP and realize what your making the industry...and dont give the bull**** story of working hard and earning your dues...I know how to work hard...I come from a farm family and now realize thats where im goin to stay...yes we do know the value of hard work...but at the end of the day we actually pay a guy what he is worth...Work to live dont live to work my friend...have fun sucking slough water for the rest of your career bud!

Eat Today? Thank A Farmer.

flying4dollars · Post by **flying4dollars** » Sat May 16, 2009 2:24 am

$16,000 a year to fly right seat on a Q400....

CanadianEh · Post by **CanadianEh** » Sat May 16, 2009 5:24 am

It's a good thing it's not as bad in Canada, but I'm sure we'll be heading that way if it continues. It's a very good thing that this issue is being addressed and brought into the public eye. Too bad 50 lives had to be lost in order for people to stop and say "wait a second, how the heck can they survive on that salary and still be able to perform their job properly"

oh boy.

Snowgoose · Post by **Snowgoose** » Sat May 16, 2009 5:25 am

Nark wrote:They forgot to mention that the $69 dollar fare they pay, also helps in the degradation of pilots pay.

I was thinking the same thing. So I went to Continental's Website and booked a Q400 ride EWR-BUF and came out round trip with taxes to $550 US. That's more extensive that a charter to Europe.

Phlyer · Post by **Phlyer** » Sat May 16, 2009 6:26 am

Great thread - I have the same stories as sepia et all. It should be a sticky for those thinking of becoming pilots.

N2 · Post by N2 » Sat May 16, 2009 6:33 am

I'm a perfect example of what becomes of a pilot when you stand up for a reasonable wage.

I had buddies that were flying Bandits for about the same as I was paying in taxes, sad..really sad!

Just another canuck · Post by **Just another canuck** » Sat May 16, 2009 6:45 am

I made more money as a crane operator, loader operator, swinging a hammer and bashing tin than any of my aviation jobs. Even when I first entered the above fields, I made more money...

Highflyinpilot · Post by **Highflyinpilot** » Sat May 16, 2009 6:51 am

Bigmac, just keep on bending over, the sad part is you in a way encourage working for shit pay. YOUR THE EXACT PROBLEM IN AVIATION THESE DAYS.

Anyways, I dont understand how someone can live of of the little wages a pilot makes. Having my commercial licence there is nothing i would love more then to apply and get a job flying, but there is ABSOLUTLY no way i would be able to live.

How do you lowly paid pilots do it, do you take out loans to pay for licences and then declare bankruptcy to be able to buy food or something (this is an honest question, how is it ever do able.)

Just another canuck · Post by **Just another canuck** » Sat May 16, 2009 7:01 am

BigMac wrote:I've been in this 16 years and I'm still slumming it in Nowhere, Alberta.

Is there something you're not telling us? After that long in the industry, you think you would have a little more going for yourself.

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Sat May 16, 2009 7:04 am

Unfortunately this is a fact in the Good old U S of A - there is no protection for employees down there other than the collective agreement they struggle to negotiate. Anyone working in Canada -- consider yourself lucky there are labour laws out there to afford you some protection - case in point -- the reinstatement of the guys fired because they were "organizing" -- as bad as we think we have it up here it's considerably worse in the States. These guys have been in a "backward" march for years as far as working conditions and salaries. Union busting is a national sport and we see the results. The past administrations have not made it any better. There is a reserved optimism now that they have a sympathetic President in power. Working under the Railway Act that is antiquated and needs an overhaul - Pilot Fatigue is also a big issue there and a new bill is trying to be pushed through the houses. Hopefully this will be accelerated now -- nothing better for the CARS is for the FARS to be updated.

I was in Europe on a contract -- one segment was done by the americans since they would do it with 2 crews -- we could do it with 3 and the Europeans needed up to 4 crews - you have no idea what conditions they are dealing with down there until you come into contact with it --

The golden age of aviation has faded - in Canada likely around the date of deregulation but prior to that it was only a select few who made it to air canada or CP or even the regionals ( PWA Transair Nordair EPA) the whole thing changed with the introduction of "Feeders" and expansion of jobs in canada of unheard of numbers.

So to get away from the rambling -- working in Canada -- consider yourself lucky if the alternative was south of 49 and yes contrary to what some of you think -- there are good operators and even stranger -- people who enjoy going to work and yes -- making a reasonable salary -- we are what we make it -- unfortunately we tend to be our own worst enemies and the top 2 traits are being too impatient (ah grasshopper) - looking for that "fast track' and apathy - not wanting to get involved to try and change and improve things -- and no -- this doesn't necessarily mean joining of forming a union.

CanadianEh · Post by **CanadianEh** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:30 am

Can't the pilots at Colgan just join ALPA and fight for better wages? Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question..

teacher · Post by **teacher** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:51 am

Yes they just did join.

We may have been aware of the low wages when we started but that doesn't prevent us from fighting for better pay and working conditions now that we are doing the thing we love.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Sat May 16, 2009 9:01 am

The argument that a teenager or early 20 something with stars in their eyes about a career in aviation should have "known what it was like" is flawed on so many levels, and from what I can see, usually only trotted out by those have "sucked it up" in their own careers and worked in sub-standard conditions for substandard wages for far too long. Like that's some kind of merit badge.

People mature - purportedly - they gain a better understanding of their industry, and priorities change from strutting into the bar with license folder in hand to pick up chicks, to trying to earn a viable living, raise a family, and maybe even put something away for a rainy day. The ONLY thing we have going for us is the people who are willing to say "F it, that offer sucks," and go somewhere else or look at alternative careers.

Considering the cross-section of Avcanada users, it constantly amazes me how many people are willing to "do what it takes," and have future generations do the same. Most of you are in the segments of the industry that pay crap, have no security, shit schedules, are cut-throat as hell, and are not sustainable with any mental health for the long term - yet "it's OK in Canada..." Really?

It's when times are tough that real change is made. Are you trying to make it better, or just contributing to the problem?

stl

"Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"

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