"Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"

[Flybaby]

I think the answer lies in ones ability to understand what they are getting themselves into before they follow a particular career path. The glory days are bye and large gone! There are exceptions but on average many flying jobs put you in position where you have much more time off than the average Monday to Friday job. Consider that when you talk about low pay, $19,862 a year but you can find yourself working less than half as many days as the people outside of the industry, if you put yourself on their schedule and worked the other half its $45,905.00. According to the link provided above ALPA says an average of 900 hours a year for an first officer, the 40 hour work week crowd puts in 2080 hours a year.

I may be wrong, but the 900 hours is flight time, they probably work three or more times that much and have over nights.

[Invertago]

Should add, I made several thousand more then her, I have half her time and instruct on a C172. I also missed 3 months of work last year and only worked part time this past summer. Right seat work doesn't have to be that bad, don't accept it.

[square]

I have turned multiple jobs because of this, turned one down yesterday it was a flying position and currently I work the ramp at pearson with no hope of getting to a plane. However I wasn't willing to move to a reserve for 1500 a month and sign a bond to fly a piston single. I will keep turning down jobs until I get an offer of a decent wage. I don't need to live in the south or a big city. I have made the move before to a northern community. I did it for a decent wage and no bond, accomodations provided etc. Unfortunately it didn't work out for unforseen circumstances. Grow a pair people I can't change this shit myself.

So you think working the ramp at pearson with no hope of getting to a plane is some kind of brave post to fight against airline business? They love that shit. You just don't wanna leave the city. Take that job on the reserve dude.

[CanadianEh]

I understand that it's a "stepping stone" but I find it hard to understand why they are making $16,000 a year to start. Something around the $30,000 sounds a bit more realistic. Are they really saving that much by overworking and underpaying pilot, especially when you factor in accidents like Colgan 3407 which will cost the company lots of money?

[C-GGGQ]

I have turned multiple jobs because of this, turned one down yesterday it was a flying position and currently I work the ramp at pearson with no hope of getting to a plane. However I wasn't willing to move to a reserve for 1500 a month and sign a bond to fly a piston single. I will keep turning down jobs until I get an offer of a decent wage. I don't need to live in the south or a big city. I have made the move before to a northern community. I did it for a decent wage and no bond, accomodations provided etc. Unfortunately it didn't work out for unforseen circumstances. Grow a pair people I can't change this shit myself.

So you think working the ramp at pearson with no hope of getting to a plane is some kind of brave post to fight against airline business? They love that shit. You just don't wanna leave the city. Take that job on the reserve dude.

I have left the city. I went to a northern town, I've moved several times over the last two years for work. I was born on the east coast, I don't even LIKE Toronto that much, however thats where i have a job at this point. When i went to the northern town i went to a place with no bond, decent wages etc. If you want to pay a $4000 to fly a 207 for 1500 a month then go for it. I think you're an idiot but thats up to you.

[xsbank]

GGGQ, don't get sucked in - you did kind of set us up, but you have to hold on to the fact that each of us follows our own path.

I happen to believe that there is about 5% of the pilot pool that ends up in something decent. The other 95% compromise, live where they don't want to be, have no retirement plan, no medical etc.

Cue the music: "That God-forsaken Hellhole I Call Home."

Face it, we all get older, whether you think that will never happen to you or not is moot. You get sick, want babies, need drugs, need a place to live, need stability for your kids... under the present system, you won't get any of that until you are senior airline or corporate.

There will be no change in this sh*tty 'career' until there is a fundamental change in the way we are perceived. We need a 'college' of pilots or a Canada-wide union that enforces pay, hours of work and days off. If you are not one of the 5% (that survive despite the looting of the airlines like recently happened to AC) you need a reasonable wage plus all of the above. A college would recognize the dilemma of low-timers and instructors and would compensate them accordingly. It would mean mush more regimentation in your career, but face it, we are just heavy equipment operators with a better view and much higher risks. Some of us are going to jail too, not too many crane operators get jail time when they do something wrong. So we also need legal protection too.

Until this happens, I would NEVER encourage someone to "go into aviation." Under the present situation, only the owners get anything out of this industry.

The rest get f*cked.

[iflyforpie]

Consider that when you talk about low pay, $19,862 a year but you can find yourself working less than half as many days as the people outside of the industry, if you put yourself on their schedule and worked the other half its $45,905.00.

That is flawed logic. Even though they may 'work' only 900 hrs a year, their commitment to the job requires much more than that. They could not pick up a half-time job for the other 1000 hours to make up the difference because of dead-heads, layovers, odd schedules, and the requirement to have rest.


I think that the whole concept of paying pilots by flight hours is flawed. This was another deterrent to me entering the low-time pilot workforce. Pilots should be offered a straight salary and an hourly rate for time on duty above the expected hours. This lets the pilots know exactly what they are getting in terms of pay and what they can bear. If companies can figure out other annual fixed-costs like insurance, why can't they simply pay a salary? The F/O hourly rate times minimum hours are a joke for most small carriers.

[karl08]

Well put Invertago...."the dream"..."for the love of it"...hahaha if I had a dollar for every time I heard that one in the past year I would have made more money than in the first, second, and third year of my flying "career"...the guy who filled my position when I left said these words QOUTE "I dont really care about how much money I make...just as long as im flying" I said Qoute "Go hard retard"

[WingsUpWheelsDown]

Extremely interesting thread. I obtained my CPL license for the sole purpose of doing some humanitarian work once I retired from a life time as a Real Estate Broker, and to be quite honest with you, I never ever considered the abilities of one single pilot on any flight I had ever taken...until I became a pilot myself. I always joke with my non-flying colleagues that I'd rather be flying for a living, but the annual entry wages for a pilot wouldn't meet my monthly expenditures. It's cheaper for me to pay for time.

Aviation has gone through the same economic upturns and downturns as everything else in our world, however, personally, I think pilots have short changed themselves. I often hear, that Pilots are simply glorified bus drivers. Yes, many times it's simply an up and down regular day at the office, however, I think that any Pilot who has been at the controls of an iced up aircraft in bad weather, breaking through cloud at 200 feet AGL and looking down at an icy runway and battling a nasty crosswind has to say that it requires a bit more knowledge, talent and skill than driving a bus. People are shocked when I tell them that when they take that Commuter flight, especially in the States, chances are the kazillion dollar plane is being flown by $50.00 worth of pilots!

Sometimes we're surprised to see how change happens, and my gut tells me the Pilots of the Colgan Air Dash 8 will speak well beyond their graves. Over worked, under paid...and sadly ill prepared. As the insurance company spews out millions and millions of dollars in settlement payments, the aviation underwriters are surely examining the "Pilot" issue. When you really think about it, for only $1.00 more per paying passenger, Colgan would have had a line up of Pilots willing to work for them. Perhaps, the insurance companies will say that for any commercial flight, the total hours on type for the pilots must be 2000 hours combined? Perhaps they'll refuse to insure carriers with Captains having more than 2 failed check rides over a period of time. I'm sure they're thinking about a lot of things right now and we can be guaranteed that the Insurance industry will be a lot more proactive in making changes to the system than anyone else. At the end of the day...something has to be said about the Pilot that has spent 700 hours instructing...he or she definitely knows how important it is to monitor airspeed...especially on final.

[Shiny Side Up]

There are two causes to the problem as viewed.

The first is that there is demand for the product of cheap pilot labour. It is the flaw of free market economics at its worst. That is to say that generally the product of the capitalist system is ideally designed to give its consumers the highest quality product for the best price. This isn't always what the consumer wants though. Consumer services are in demand which don't adhere to this ideal, but place undue priority on lower costs verses quality of service (at the other far end of the spectrum too, there is also a market for items of prestige regardless of their cost or quality) Quality - and tied with that safety and reliability - must steeply decline for consumers to demand it again, or for it to override the desirability of low costs. Sadly for this quality to be sufficiently low for the consumer demand that it improve is going to require far more incidents like the one above to bring the matters to their full attention. Rest assured there are some out there who know an exact rate of fatalities verses hour of air travel that the business can sustain. The only other means of the consumers not getting the product that they want is for that product not to exist at all, for one reason or another.

Which brings us to our second reason for the problem - pilots accepting poor work/pay conditions. If pilots didn't accept these conditions, there would be no product, with no product demand dries up. Pilots must start standing up for themselves, and for those who will follow. The free market economics which are currently running rampant in the aviation world simply do not function to the benefit of all in its purest form. It currently functions on the principle that some will benefit and some will die in the process. When will this become unacceptable to the majority so that they do something? When we start voting with our feet for change?

[E-Flyer]

Excellent Post Shiny !

As you said, it takes 2 sides to develop the dilemma we're in today.

[xsbank]

Shiny, with respect, I don't think you quite get it - the low-cost response to the consumer is driven by management. When costs need to be cut, the lease won't change, the cost of fuel won't change, the parts guy won't give up any dollars, so the only part of the operation that is negotiable is the crew and so far, crews have been willing to give up the wages because they 'need the hours.'

Look how badly the flight attendants are treated too?

There is a bottom line that accounts for all of the fixed and variable costs that allow a company to be viable as well as to pay the crews a wage that is a living wage. That is the lowest any company should set the cost of a ticket. Yes, sales and promotions might cut that, but those are temporary situations.

Think about gasoline - it is set at a price that never results in a loss to the oil companies - look at it now, it is rising despite all the contradictions of the crappy economy, but if you want to drive your car, you buy gas. Same here - you want to go on hols for 3 weeks in Spain, you should have to pay. What does a 'rig pig' get, by the way? If they don't get the pay, they don't go. Their conditions are better than pilot's, they work overtime, they get the pay. They are probably in a safer environment now than pilots, too.

Why are we such pushovers?

[ditar]

What were First Officer Shaw’s qualifications and hours logged?
a. First Officer Shaw had 2,220 total hours of flight experience.
b. She had 772 hours flying the Q400 aircraft, qualifying her fully in accordance with all applicable Federal Aviation Regulations.

Interesting, and from what I understand she had even more multi-turbine. Reading the CVR transcript then raises some eyebrows. At one point she asks what the chip detector light is all about. You'd think that would have been covered in more than one ground school or sim session.

[sky's the limit]

Why are we such pushovers?

And there is the Million Dollar question.

Too many people are too starry eyed about this career for their own good.


stl

[loopa]

Why are we such pushovers?

And there is the Million Dollar question.

Too many people are too starry eyed about this career for their own good.


stl

I think the majority of employees in any industry do it for their own good.

What's the first thing that goes through the mind of a high school grad?
" Go become a pilot so I can:
- Fly Planes
- Get Loaded
- Get Laid "


If they were to do it for the good of everybody else, no body would put up with or even consider working this industry to something better.


My 2 cents

[sky's the limit]

Loopa,

I think you miss-read my post.

We all do things for our own good, but what I said is the misconceptions of the industry lead to a willingness to accept numerous conditions and pay grades that are not conducive to our well being. We have all been there, but some of us wake up a whole lot sooner than others. Took me 300hrs into my first job, some never get there.


stl

[Liquid Charlie]

Being an ALPA member myself, I find it somewhat embarassing that we are representing a company that pays such disgusting, pathetic wages.

As I said before it takes many years and several contracts to make major "inroads" - they are very new to ALPA and combine that with the labour culture down there that are no surprises to their situation. All they can do is hope that the blame goes where it should and not completely on the flight crew's shoulders -- you can bet that sphincters are being tightened and there is scrambling to divert blame from where it should be -- lawyers making money --

Moving back north of 49

It always strikes me strange that a preventable accident like this always has major background issues usually related to working conditions -- fatigue has been a "buzz word" for more than 10 years now but in reality there has been very little done to solve the problem. The onus has been shoved on our shoulders to police ourselves and our culture seems to have difficulty in turning down that trip we have no business accepting (been there done that) - most "airlines" have the mechanism for the pilots to do this without reproach - the ma and pa operations -- not so much -- but there has to be a resolve -- little off subject but in the bygone years I would never accept a trip that someone else turned down due to wx or conditions - any given group should put greed aside and stick together when it comes to this stuff -- it's a baby step but eventually the "boss" gets the message as long as the people involved aren't playing games and looking for excuses not to go to work -- I've seem that before too and that complicates and unwinds any gaines in very short order.

[kevinsky18]

F/O grossed $16,254.00

I wonder how much the flight attendents are making? I'm willing to bet more than $16000 / year.

That would be a shocker to the public to find out the person serving you juice and cookies is making more than the pilot.

[jeta1]

comment removed - time expired

[Flybaby]

F/O grossed $16,254.00

I wonder how much the flight attendents are making? I'm willing to bet more than $16000 / year.

That would be a shocker to the public to find out the person serving you juice and cookies is making more than the pilot.

Job Title: Flight Attendant Salary: 1275.00 / Monthly
Location: Houston, TX Type: Full-Time

Description:
Requirements for Position: Flight Attendant
MINIMUM JOB REQUIREMENTS::
Excellent communication skills.
Drug & Alcohol free.
High School Diploma or GED
At least 18 years old
20/40 correctable vision
Able to work a variety of shifts to inclulde nights, weekends & holidays,
Have full use of all 5 senses.
Height under 6'
Physically fit, well groomed and practices good hygiene.
Able to lift 60 pounds to shoulder height.
Must be a U.S. Citizen or have authorization to work in the U.S. as
defined in the Immigration Act of 1986.
Able to attend 2-3 weeks of classroom and line training in Manassas.
Be willing to accept and work with changes in scheduling,.
No felony convictions
Must be willing to undergo a background investigation.
Be willing to take a pre-employment drug test.
Colgan offers excellent medical benefits and airline flight privileges.
EOE

I would have thought they made more too.

[Just another canuck]

15,300/year for the flight attendant... only 1000 less than the FO. But really, both salaries are a disgrace.

[ChillinOnIce]

I agree with lurches ideas.

[dashx]

The Globe and Mail article is just another example of the bullshit the media prints on a daily basis.

Now i wonder ..........

http://www.ainonline.com/news/single-ne ... ash-probe/

Am i getting the truth here? Because it seems here the blame is not just "fatigue" and "low salaries" and "junior" pilots.

No if I am to believe this article (once again) the blame rests with the pilots (In this case (as in every case)) with the captain. As in not following proper procedures.

Fatigue? Chit chat? Low salaries?

How many distractions does it take to get to the centre of a tootsie roll?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ai ... Flight_401

I guess it doesn't take much does it? To get distracted I mean....

[dji]

for those wanting to limit the number of licences available. would you still like that idea if you didn't have your ticket yet?

Seems a bit selfish to me to say from now on nobody gets in.

Just sayin.

[Mustang06]

Similar stories to everyone else. I made more on the outside opf aviation, but I never made min. wage or anything remotely as low as that or what a lot of entry level canadian ops pay while actually flying.

There are some DECENT operations out there that take low timers and give them a shot, but it seems people like to F*kk them over and they quite quickly become jaded and apprehensive about hiring and it pooches it for the rest of us.

Be of good moral fibre, solid work ethic and stand up for yourself when it comes to living conditions and wages. If we as a pilot group can hammer this into the new and up and comers as well as anyone that needs it, perhaps we can turn the industry just even slightly towards a better path.

I did it, I refused to take a 19k salary with 14 hours daily work and 18k bond job, guess what, somebody else took it!
I'm still unemployed with a baby coming in 6 months. if we don't show some self respect it will continues.
Take a look at this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswj ... r_embedded