"Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"

gratefulsurvivor · Post by **gratefulsurvivor** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:56 pm

Being new to this forum, I admit I am unfamiliar with all the rules. Other forums I belong to address issues raised in a thread in that same thread. I trust that you have sent the same message to jeta1 who also quoted the same passage? I must have missed it.

Double Wasp · Post by **Double Wasp** » Mon May 18, 2009 9:09 pm

JetA1 pointed out a lack of finesse and kept the discussion on topic, with tact I might add. Your posts are negative and are directing this discussion away on a tangent. Why? I am not saying you don't have a right to say your bit but if it is off topic start another discussion. I would think it is just being polite. Now...Do you have anything to say about how poorly paid (or not) pilots are?
I would love to hear it.
DW

gratefulsurvivor · Post by **gratefulsurvivor** » Mon May 18, 2009 9:51 pm

Having recently developed an interest in the role of flight attendants in the aviation industry, a google search using the words "flight attendant + aviation + Canada" brings you here about 12 results down the list. I thought judging by the membership numbers and post statistics that it would be a place to learn more about it. The first thread on the first forum seemed to indicate that there was little respect for these people.

I see that I should have perhaps read more on this site before offering an opinion, as there seem to be a large number of "attack posts" particularly in response to inexperienced people. And I guess I could have left the ass part out and still got my point across.

As to the question about pilot salaries, judging by what I have read about the investigation of the Buffalo crash, they definitely appear inadequate. However, belittling others and their contributions does nothing to further one's cause to be regarded or paid as a professional. That being said, I do wish you all success in your pursuit of better conditions for all aviation workers.

Blue Side Down · Post by **Blue Side Down** » Mon May 18, 2009 9:55 pm

Hopefully I'm not gonna repost an earlier thought, as I haven't read the entirety of this thread-

I saw the video that was linked to where a fellow at the end was ruminating about how 'pilot's should be paid more, and the public would agree that they should have higher wages and live decently because they're directly responsible for so many lives'- that was the jist of it anyways. There was even Ms. Jane Public agreeing that 'yes, I think pilots should be paid more'

Easier said than done... sure the media representatives and public would support paying pilots more until they remember that each additional penny that the pilot gets requires five or ten out of their own pocket when they purchase a ticket- next thing we know the world will be complaining about airline ticket 'price gouging'. Who's kidding who here?

Mr. North · Post by **Mr. North** » Mon May 18, 2009 10:10 pm

Concerning the link; Summary of Flight Crew and Air Traffic Control Licences, posted by CD.. How many of the 1461 new CPL's are for foreigners?

Does anyone want to even take a stab at how many entry level jobs out there right now? When I graduated in '03, only 5 of us out of a class of 26 landed a job within a year.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:10 am

Let's say you are paid $40 per hour. If you needed $80 per hour to make life worth living, all you have to do is charge the passengers (say 80 pax) an additional $0.50 and the pilots would have a living wage. Or $1.00 each and the FO and the FA can fight over the rest(!). For an 8-hour day, maximum $8.00; when a sandwich costs 6 or 7 dollars, no passenger would complain about a 1/hour, or more, surcharge to pay the pilots. They paid the fuel surcharge.

Let's get real here. What if a fuel control unit bakes capriciously? Hundreds of thousands out the door to buy another.

Like I've said before and will again, no pilot salary ever killed an airline.

florch · Post by **florch** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:29 am

The owner's union has been successful in manipulating the supply and demand curve. Pilot's are not united and not represented when it comes to having a seat at the table for creating and changing legislated working conditions, even though we know best the flaws and shortcomings of the current patchwork system.

If we were able to influence the rules, we would need more pilot's to cover the current amount of work at most airlines and certainly system wide. More demand would suck up some of the supply glut and create better salaries for all.

Step one to improving our lot is to improve working conditions, not to create artificial limits on entry or to re-regulate the industry.

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Tue May 19, 2009 11:30 am

Oh and for that suggestion of "one re-write" only... nice try, but that will never happen. It "could" only happen if you made all ground school and written exams mandatory before going flying, at the private pilot level only. Once a candidate has invested thousands of dollars in flying lessons, the flying club will keep taking his or her money until pigs fly - or he does legally.

except TC does the testing not flight schools (yes some have had tc testing devices implanted in them) make it law, one rewrite the school doesn't have a say over it tc says no more tests.

Just another canuck · Tue May 19, 2009 11:35 am

Instead of "one re-write only"... how about a greater number of exams and/or more difficult exams? This would ensure less people would advance to the level of a commercial pilot. Look at the exams one must write overseas to acquire their ATPL and look at Canada's... it's not even a comparison. Maybe if we implemented this level of difficulty in our exams at the commercial level, we could weed out a number of potential pilots before they can get in the system. Just a thought...

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Tue May 19, 2009 12:25 pm

I agree that it should be more difficult however increasing the number of exams doesn't help if you still can go back and rewrite till you pass eventually. I'm sure the JAA exams must have a limit.

Hot Fuel · Post by **Hot Fuel** » Tue May 19, 2009 12:29 pm

Kind of like PPC rides? Why draw the line at the entry level of the bussines? Nav Canada washes out employees when they don't make the grade, perhaps there should be a similair repercussion for pilots and failed rides.

jeta1 · Post by **jeta1** » Tue May 19, 2009 1:32 pm

comment removed - time expired

jetmech · Post by **jetmech** » Tue May 19, 2009 3:38 pm

I don't know what your all complaining about. It's not like you have any responsibility. I mean I can see you getting a decent wage if you were snapping on hub caps at a factory or something....but to fly an airplane? and not see where your going half the time? Or to maybe have to repair one in a snow storm? Come on...

fingersmac · Post by **fingersmac** » Tue May 19, 2009 4:21 pm

Just another canuck wrote:Instead of "one re-write only"... how about a greater number of exams and/or more difficult exams? This would ensure less people would advance to the level of a commercial pilot. Look at the exams one must write overseas to acquire their ATPL and look at Canada's... it's not even a comparison. Maybe if we implemented this level of difficulty in our exams at the commercial level, we could weed out a number of potential pilots before they can get in the system. Just a thought...

The JAA system of exams does nothing to weed out potential pilots; it just lengthens the process of becoming one. There are plenty of wannabe pilots in Europe that are willing to take second mortgages on their parents homes to afford the $100K+ training costs. There seems to be no shortage of willing candidates for self-funded type rating schemes and plenty that are willing to pay for line hours in order to get a job.

dashx · Post by **dashx** » Tue May 19, 2009 5:48 pm

A few of you have big chips on your shoulders. But there is no need to put yourselves on a pedestal. Your shit stinks just like everyone else's. I have worked with lots of pilots that treated the FA's and mechanics with the respect they deserve. Then of course I worked with a small group that disrespected both (funny how that worked out). Can you guess which group complained about how much money they were making??? Or not making but should be making?

So maybe a FA should be making 1/2 that a pilot earns. What does a Capt on the 777 at AC earn????? No problem give the FA half. Actually I'll take half of the capt's too...........Because its a lot more than an AME is making.

And I think a few pilots should work as FA's for a while (you know walk in their shoes - high heels would be nice baby...) before you make comments.

And please remember what the survivors said after the Dryden crash in regards to the FA'a working that day. So yes please put a price on them. Just don't underestimate their role in the A/C.

I don't think interns make that much money and I think that an operating room nurse makes almost (but just not as much) as much as the surgeon. And not every nurse is working next to a surgeon. Oh and a few hundred years ago being a doctor was not exactly a glorified profession. And they didn't exactly heal people did they (didn't even wash their hands)

But just out of curiosity does any want to say how much they are making as "junior" pilots???????????????

And how much are they "overworked"???

Hours per day/per week/per month.....

Just to stay on topic..........

Just another canuck · Post by **Just another canuck** » Tue May 19, 2009 6:10 pm

Deleted.

sepia · Post by **sepia** » Tue May 19, 2009 6:14 pm

C-GGGQ wrote:I agree that it should be more difficult however increasing the number of exams doesn't help if you still can go back and rewrite till you pass eventually. I'm sure the JAA exams must have a limit.

It's not the number or rewrites that would fix this problem. Look at becoming a veterinary surgeon, or lawyer. They open the test once a year. Anyone that wants to write can show up at that time and write it. You fail, no problem at all, see ya next year. That would certainly put much more focus on passing.

Scott44 · Post by **Scott44** » Tue May 19, 2009 6:42 pm

Pilot A) Fails written test 2 to 8 times. Passes check ride no problem and is remarked on his excellent knowledge in the aircraft.

Pilot B ) Passed written test, first time with a good score. But fails his check ride 2 times.

How does it make sense to have more tests or limit the number of chances? How does this solve the situation from the plane crash?

There are so many flight schools in Canada, where the school is all about robbing money from the student and could care less. Reason for this is because instructing pay is so crappy, and all they care about is getting air time. Some could care less on the ground work portion, as there not paid for it Maybe this is the reason, Pilot A did so bad on the written, or why pilot B did so bad on the check ride.

Airline pilots need to be paid be the hour. For example if your first flight is 9am, your shift would start at 8 or 8:30am and you would be paid from the time you show up to the time you go home, if your over 8 hours your paid overtime.. None of this paying for flight/air time. Flight Attendents by the hour as well. A Regional pilot should be no less then $35,000

Flight instructors should be paid by a salary. If a school can 't pay a salary maybe they shouldn't be running a flight school.

Just my two cents.

dashx · Post by **dashx** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:14 pm

The pilots up front run into threats on every flight though

Are you kidding me?????????????????

Are you in Iraq?????????

OMFG the violins are playing.. for this one.

How about the ATC guys??? Do you suppose they deal with threats everyday too.......????

JAC if you are dealing with threats everyday you'll have to clarify......

BTW 've been mixing my red with white so I'll apologize right now....

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:26 pm

And one thing that always bothered me was the way certain pilots treated AME's and talked about them behind their back, like they're somehow better and above them.

That is because those pilots are ignorant of the fact that to be an AME requires far more IQ and hands on skills than being a pilot requires.

Just another canuck · Post by **Just another canuck** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:52 pm

Deleted.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:00 pm

Anyway, this is not proper conversation for this thread. It's been made a sticky and not so new pilots can read about the differences between FA's and pilots.

Can we continue with why AME's are a higher caliber of individual?

Just another canuck · Post by **Just another canuck** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:05 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Anyway, this is not proper conversation for this thread. It's been made a sticky and not so new pilots can read about the differences between FA's and pilots.
Can we continue with why AME's are a higher caliber of individual?

I can't remember whose signature it is, but it says, "You can train a monkey to ride a bike, but you can't train it to fix it."

I thought that was rather clever... and true.

Double Wasp · Post by **Double Wasp** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:24 pm

Mate you gotta cut back on the Red Bull and think before you write.

I am pretty sure this thread was made a sticky to show new guys what is going on out there regarding wages at the so called dream jobs. And how these wages can affect safety.

The if the pilots pay is pathetic, the FA's pay is worse. While actually driving the plane is usually hours of sheer boredom interrupted by seconds of sheer terror. An FA can almost be certain there will be one SOB on any given flight. They are the face of the airline as well as the pax wranglers. They are not given enough credit for what they have to know or deal with on a daily basis while the guys in the Raybans shut the door and wonder why it is taking so long to get the coffee.

AME's on the other hand not good for much ..... just kidding,

Could you imagine if your job was to deal with some hot shot who comes of the plane saying," It's making this noise when I do this, its not right, fix it." . AME's are usually given a problem to deal with when everyone else goes home for the night and are expected turn coal into gold on a regular basis. They work their magic and lose skin on their knuckles so you can come in the next morning and do your job.

You have to open your eyes and see that you are a small part of a much greater team. Within which everyone is as important as the next.

Some more inexperienced people are posting like a kids sitting with their parents when company comes over. You want to be involved and think you know what you are talking about but every time, lately, I read what you post you prove you don't. I am not trying to be a dick here but you have got nothing to prove to anyone but yourself. Stick with what you know for sure other wise you look like an idiot. The advice is free to all.

I'm tired this is the most I've written in years.
Waiting for the heat.
DW

Edited to be a more inclusive dick.

dashx · Post by **dashx** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:29 pm

You can train a monkey to ride a bike, but you can't train it to fix it."

I believe that Bob Newhart has a joke about an infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of typewriters....

So.......

oh wait...Im rambling.......

"Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"

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