Did you ever sign a training bond or buy a PPC?

[AuxBatOn]

Bonds are perfectly legal and make sense. They protect a company from pilots that want to jump ship too soon after training.

I totally agree with training bonds, but I do not agree with paying money up front.

As for the military, it's probably the best example of a bond. 7 years of mandatory service after wings. The difference is that you cannot even quit and pay. You do not have a choice to stay for the 7 years.

[Cat Driver]

Yes, if only to protect the jobs of the good pilots from the depradations of the dishonest ones who could not or would not keep their word.

And there is the bottom line for why there are bonds.

[Driving Rain]

If training bonds were really legal the gumitup would be doing them. Guess what? They ain't.

The military requires x number of years of mandatory service following training. Same premise I think.

Not the same at all. If a military pilot flunks his medical at a later date they are no longer on the hook. If a public sector pilot has medical issues, they"re still on the hook to pay back the bond.

I know of one pilot that got cancer and died, the company went after his widow and child's astate to settle a bond. Too bad he died without a pot to piss in.

[AuxBatOn]

If training bonds were really legal the gumitup would be doing them. Guess what? They ain't.

The military requires x number of years of mandatory service following training. Same premise I think.

Not the same at all. If a military pilot flunks his medical at a later date they are no longer on the hook. If a public sector pilot has medical issues, they"re still on the hook to pay back the bond.

I know of one pilot that got cancer and died, the company went after his widow and child's astate to settle a bond. Too bad he died without a pot to piss in.

That's actually the first I heard of anything like that happening, and I do not believe that's actually standard practice amongst operators that ask for a bond to be signed.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

I was pretty sure that the difference has been hammered into the ground, pulled back up and hammered back in a hundred times on this board. I don't accept the whole buying your job notion of a training bond that requires a finacial transaction.

Can somebody on this board provide me a single example of an individual that has walked into one of these companies, dropped $10,000 to $20,000 grand on a desk without having the credentials or meeting the minimum requirements and was hired simply because he/she had cash in hand?

In my opinion, even for that to qualify as buying a job it would require the company to keep the cash forever. As I remember it, when I bought my car I never got my money back.

Jetsgo, and it was $40,000

[yfly]

Always an interesting topic, especially reading how everyone justifies what they have done. Training bonds are perfectly legal. Parting with cash up front to be held in eskrow is a total farce. What it does is place the burden of legal action on the pilot should the parties part ways.

If you have agreed to stay a fixed term then leave prematurely, one of two things will happen. If the company paid for the training, they will determine if the outstanding funds are worth chasing through the legal system. They most likely have deeper pockets than you and the thought of losing causes most defendants to settle so the company gets their funds. If the pilot has paid for training up front, he/she really has to consider the cause of dismissal, the cost of litigation and the cost of the defendants expenses should the pilot lose. There isn't a whole lot of incentive to take it that far and if the pilot quit, he'she won't be negotiating anything as they go out the door.

Training bonds are a shame, almost as shameful as the pilots who violate terms of employment as they have caused bonds to be the norm.

One thing to keep in mind is that any legal agreement is negotiable. If you and your lawyer don't like the terms, ink in the changes and turn it back over to the employer. That would include things like repayment in case of sickness or death. Even credit card terms are negotiable prior to accepting the card. Use your heads, or at least a good lawyers. If you can't agree on terms, don't take the job.

[Double Wasp]

I have not had a problem signing a bond (promissary note). I am working under one now. If the employer said to me I am going to need you to stick around for ____ amount of time after I give this training and I agree to it.... I would stick around. Signing a piece of paper saying the same thing is a non issue. A bond only concerns those who intend on leaving. Then, if you do leave, own up to the responsibility you signed up for. There are very few exceptions that I would allow for a person to leave and not pay ie: medical reasons. The company can not legally hold you for that anyway.
I have not worked for a company that requires money up front nor do I see myself doing so. To me, from a company point of view, it just seems unethical. From a pilot point of view it seems ludicrous. People say "what else can we do" but there are other employers out there that do not require money up front. I would seek them out first.
Well that is how I see it.
DW

[Donald]

A bond only concerns those who intend on leaving.

Situation...you apply for a position with a company as a direct entry captain on a twin turbine. They offer you X amount of money in salary and mileage, and request you sign a 2 year bond since you are not previously PPC'd. You agree. 6-12 months into the job, things are slowing down considerably. You are flying only about 20-30% of the amount you were told to expect, so the boss calls you in to work in the ramp/office. Since the bond only specifically relates to your time of employment and training cost, if you attempt to leave you will most likely have to pay it out or face legal action.

Would this person be considered "scum"?

Do you think this is a situation that does not occur, or occurs rarely?

[AuxBatOn]

A bond only concerns those who intend on leaving.

Situation...you apply for a position with a company as a direct entry captain on a twin turbine. They offer you X amount of money in salary and mileage, and request you sign a 2 year bond since you are not previously PPC'd. You agree. 6-12 months into the job, things are slowing down considerably. You are flying only about 20-30% of the amount you were told to expect, so the boss calls you in to work in the ramp/office. Since the bond only specifically relates to your time of employment and training cost, if you attempt to leave you will most likely have to pay it out or face legal action.

Would this person be considered "scum"?

Do you think this is a situation that does not occur, or occurs rarely?

It does happen, however it is your responsability to make sure the terms of the bond are good for you.

On the bright side, you do have a paying job, even though you're not flying as much as you'd like. I don't really see the problem as you still get a paycheck.

[Brown Bear]

On the bright side, you do have a paying job, even though you're not flying as much as you'd like. I don't really see the problem as you still get a paycheck.

Hey AuxBatOn.....we have a large pile of shit we need shoveled. Pity there are no trips to fly this month.
Ya with me?

[Donald]

It does happen, however it is your responsability to make sure the terms of the bond are good for you.

Bingo.

Look at this bond: ORNGE bond

Now tell me, how much protection is there for the employee (pilot)?

[Double Wasp]

First I don't believe I used the word scum.

Second, aviation is a finicky business. If you have done your research ahead of time you should know what kind of outfit you are getting into. If it is a charter company then obviously work comes and goes and such is life. I am not very familiar with ORNGE so I can not comment on them. How ever if you only have 12 months left to go it is really only 8 or 9 until you can start looking for a job. Then you can leave with out any hard feelings and probably even a good reference. You will still have your PPC and, even though its not as much as you banked on, a good amount of time on type.
Unless I am truly getting messed with I try and look at it from the point of view of the company as well. Are they being up front with me, have the tried to all along. Is it beyond their control what is happening to the amount of flying. Promise or not if there is no work they can't have you driving around with empty airplanes because they promised you 1000hrs a year. One more thing if the flying dropped as much as you proposed, I probably would be happy to still have a job and not a pink slip.
If I was confronted with said pile Brown bear I would tell them to give me a call when something aviation related shows up and I would go have some lunch. If they want to fire me then let them, the ball is in their court. I am pretty sure I would be able to get out of the bond in such a situation and I would not be worrying over a reference.
DW

Edited to add: I stopped reading the above bond after the statement "the pilot will pay with a certified cheque"!
After that I would have said to them I am willing to agree to a repayment plan if I leave early however I am not paying you any money up front. I would not expect to hear from them again.