"Puppy Mills"

Sidebar · Post by **Sidebar** » Sat May 23, 2009 6:40 am

There's quite a few derogatory comments on the site aimed at puppy mills. I'm assuming they refer to the various aviation colleges scattered across the country. I haven't had any experience with students operating from these places. What is it that people are so p1ssed about? Is there anything good to say about them?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat May 23, 2009 7:19 am

My guess is, people are comparing the "puppy mills" which bring unwanted puppies into the world to be sold at pet shops for pure profit, with large flight schools, and aviation colleges that produce unwanted, unneeded pilots for pure profit.
Would that answer your question?

Craziator · Post by **Craziator** » Sat May 23, 2009 7:24 am

perhaps s*** Factory or something in more appropriate?
Somebody always wants puppies....

Flybaby · Post by **Flybaby** » Sat May 23, 2009 7:46 am

The only problem I have with aviation colleges is the ones that tax payers are paying for. Everyone keeps on saying the industry is based on supply and demand, one simple answer is to stop handing out free Multi-IFR's, free Navajo PPC's, ect. This isn't rocket science, barriers to entry is a very basic reason for increased value of employment. The government by subsidizing flight training is reducing the value of that education and effectively driving working conditions and pay down in the industry.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat May 23, 2009 7:53 am

I have no problem with aviation colleges. I work with a couple of grads. They're great guys. Even if they never invite to play golf with them. Besides, where would the Gulags like Wasaya get their cheap labour, if it weren't for the colleges? If you actually paid 30K of your own money to get a licence......well, you know where this is headed.

Just another canuck · Post by **Just another canuck** » Sat May 23, 2009 8:01 am

Flybaby wrote:The government by subsidizing flight training is reducing the value of that education and effectively driving working conditions and pay down in the industry.

Well, if I remember correctly, we graduated about 20 students a year from Confederation and I believe the Sault is around the same, maybe a bit more. How many students does your average flight school pump out every year? Take all private flight schools in the GTA... and how many students a year do they supply to the industry? I think it's unfair to have such a hate on for these schools. Plus, the level of training and "aviation" education one receives at Con, the Sault, or Seneca is far more advanced than what one would expect to get at your average FTU. You spend entire semesters on topics that are otherwise covered in an hour at the FTU.

I paid 7000 dollars of tuition for a CPL w/ Float Rating and an Aviation Diploma (not very useful, but still)... why would I, or anyone, want to go another way, if they had the choice?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat May 23, 2009 8:07 am

I KNEW it! You're a college grad! I would never have guessed!

Just another canuck · Post by **Just another canuck** » Sat May 23, 2009 8:17 am

Okay, I won't say anything else, for fear of digging a hole. Most of us aren't college grads, so I would be fighting a losing battle. But I will just mention who trained me, in the classroom and in the plane.

Elizabeth Wieben
Andy Hay
Glenn Whiteside

There are low time instructors out there who do a good job, I'm sure. But I don't think you could compare them to above three people. They're just outstanding, to say the least... both in and out of the plane.

Cheers guys.

P.S. Clunk, as always, I look forward to your reply.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat May 23, 2009 8:18 am

I would suggest you all listen to Clunkdriver because I know him personally and respect his opinions.

. E.

The Old Fogducker · Post by **The Old Fogducker** » Sat May 23, 2009 8:28 am

I always get a bit of a smile when I see the term "Puppy Mill" in reference to an FTU, because I always have a momentary flash of the biggest "Puppy Mill" in Canadian Aviation history called the British Commonwealth Air Training Program.

Many of my initial instructors were the product of that huge "Puppy Mill."

Fog

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat May 23, 2009 8:32 am

Hell speaking of qualified instructors here is a link to one of the instructors that taught me over the years, Patrick was my main instructor on the A320 Sim at the factory in Toulouse France.

We flew together for two years and became good friends, I must get in contact with him and have him come over here and spend some time on my sail boat now that we both are retired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Baudry

Here is a link to the flight that Patrick and I flew with a crew of eight in 1998.

http://livre.fnac.com/a776022/Patrick-B ... tale?PID=1

The Old Fogducker · Post by **The Old Fogducker** » Sat May 23, 2009 9:05 am

Gosh . ... looks like he's accomplished nothing during his allotted time on earth huh?

Pretty neat....

Fog

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:21 am

Patrick was an interesting study in mixed emotions.

When he first got his hooks onto the control wheel of the PBY he was at first puzzled because could not make the thing do what he wanted it to do, then he became angry...so I had a little talk with him and explained that before he could really make the PBY do what he wanted it to do he had to forget about the aircraft he was familiar with and start back in the bacics of aircraft attitudes and movements and then re-learn how to fly a basic airplane.

Anyhow we came to an agreement which was if he would teach me about what the space shuttle was like to experience I would teach him how to really fly a PBY.

Once he wiped out his ideas about why he couldn't fly the PBY the way he thought it should be flown and let me demonstrate then let him do it we got along just fine.Not only did he spend hours telling me about the space shuttle he got permission from Airbus Industries to use me as a proof of concept experiment to see how long it would take an ordinary pilot to learn to fly the Airbus without any access to the manuals or previous exposure the the three laws of flight concept and the magic screens in front of the pilots.

So I got to sit in the Sim and learn by doing and asking questions and after a few hours they gave me the manuals so I could read about what I had been doing.

The more accomplished pilots can sometimes have difficulty with something like a PBY, another of my favorite student was this guy.

http://www.glendellaerobatics.com/

I first met Glen in Cape Town where I gave him his PBY type rating...poor Glen almost committed suicide in his first few attempts at flying the PBY on the water and getting used to making it do what he wanted in the air also was a real problem until I finally got him sorted out as far as control inputs were concerned.

We did a lot of flying together and eventually ended up flying in some of the same air shows in Europe.

I would like to go to Windsor and watch him compete in the Red Bull Air Races on the Detroit river...don't know if I will make it this year though.

Sidebar · Post by **Sidebar** » Sat May 23, 2009 10:58 am

Flybaby wrote:The only problem I have with aviation colleges is the ones that tax payers are paying for.

I plead ignorance; please educate me. Where do taxpayers fit into all this, besides tax deductions for the students? Are the colleges subsidized by taxpayers?

BoostedNihilist · Post by **BoostedNihilist** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:22 am

I plead ignorance; please educate me. Where do taxpayers fit into all this, besides tax deductions for the students? Are the colleges subsidized by taxpayers?

Well, there is this here...

I paid 7000 dollars of tuition for a CPL w/ Float Rating and an Aviation Diploma (not very useful, but still)... why would I, or anyone, want to go another way, if they had the choice?

Which is really cool, but by my math pretty much im-fucking-possible... unless either someone in government is getting cash in a bag or the government is giving cash in a bag. Those same licenses for us poor canadians run at *LEAST* 50k.

And by the way, there are more than TWO aviation colleges in Canada, despite what those from you know where would like to admit.

SkyWolfe · Post by **SkyWolfe** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:36 am

I spent about 80K at a mill to be a puppy. YEEUH

Lucky bastards that got it all for free... >:(

Flybaby · Post by **Flybaby** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:39 am

I don't have any problem with aviation college's, I just don't think that it's a good use of tax payers money. What would you rather,
a: reduce surgery wait times
or
b: give some kid in Quebec 50 hours on a Navajo.
One has a benefit to the Canadian people and the other benefits a select few and has very little benefit to the Canadian public.

Highflyinpilot · Post by **Highflyinpilot** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:43 am

see and now its like a vicious circle, I get accepted into college aviation program and take it, why because i know going into the industry i will barely make enough for a box of kd and a loaf of bread at the end of the month. Now do i really want to spend 50 g's or 7 g's. The service is there, use it. Its like the EI paying for ratings situation, the service is there so phacking right ill use it.

raven54 · Post by **raven54** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:45 am

80g's, holy shit balls!!! You do your multi IFR on a 737?

HS-74 · Post by **HS-74** » Sat May 23, 2009 11:53 am

Call me old fashioned....but I did things the "Hard Way." I did all my training at a flight school, got a university degree on the side, work the ramp for some time, flew 703, 704 and then 705. And the important thing is that I met and learned a lot from the people along the way.
I know that there are some exceptions to the rule but I my 12 years of aviation experience, a large percentage of college grads that I met come out of school thinking that they deserve a 705 spot. Many of them seem to have this attitude that they are about working ground jobs.
IMHO, people coming into this industry should start from the ramp/dock and soak up some knowledge and then fly.

I fear I may have opened a can of worms here...

SkyWolfe · Post by **SkyWolfe** » Sat May 23, 2009 12:03 pm

I included Tuition and fee's and books...

Otherwise it was about 65K

iflyforpie · Post by **iflyforpie** » Sat May 23, 2009 12:16 pm

The Old Fogducker wrote:I always get a bit of a smile when I see the term "Puppy Mill" in reference to an FTU, because I always have a momentary flash of the biggest "Puppy Mill" in Canadian Aviation history called the British Commonwealth Air Training Program.

Many of my initial instructors were the product of that huge "Puppy Mill."

Fog

Touche.

Most of the first BCATP instructors were civilians with a couple-hundred hours that taught other pilots first how to fly; and then immediately after how to teach. Thousands of Allied aircrew were taught how to fly in basic by pilots who had just learned to fly themselves. And the pilots in primary and OTUs weren't that much further ahead.

Imagine being PIC of a Lancaster at 22 with 400 or so hours TT. No co-pilot, a trans-Atlantic ferry from good ol' Victory Aircraft in Malton to an RAF field in England, and then 25 or 30 night missions into the Reich with 88s and Me-110s disrupting your flying and navigation. Think the Warplane Heritage Museum would let me fly their Lanc even though I have far more experience and it is peactime?

Non-operational losses (planes and aircrew) exceeded those by enemy action for the Allies during the course of the war.

Rudy · Post by **Rudy** » Sat May 23, 2009 12:34 pm

Not only did the taxpayer pick up the tab for my commercial multi-ifr flight training through an Ontario college. They also paid for my private license and glider license through the air cadet program. I certainly wondered why when I graduated and spent 2 years trying to land a job on the ramp.

Perhaps the government buys into the looming 'pilot shortage' myth. The training costs are much greater than the average person would be willing to pay out of pocket.

Perhaps they are under pressure from the industry to keep pilot market flooded so airlines can continue cutting wages and benefits.

SkyWolfe · Post by **SkyWolfe** » Sat May 23, 2009 1:10 pm

HS-74 wrote:Call me old fashioned....but I did things the "Hard Way." I did all my training at a flight school, got a university degree on the side, work the ramp for some time, flew 703, 704 and then 705. And the important thing is that I met and learned a lot from the people along the way.
I know that there are some exceptions to the rule but I my 12 years of aviation experience, a large percentage of college grads that I met come out of school thinking that they deserve a 705 spot. Many of them seem to have this attitude that they are about working ground jobs.
IMHO, people coming into this industry should start from the ramp/dock and soak up some knowledge and then fly.

I fear I may have opened a can of worms here...

I agree 100%, on the flip side, I am one who has never expected to be spoon fed a 705 spot because I came from a college. Instead, I have decided to continue learning and working scrub jobs. Funny, class mates look down on me because of it. I guess that goes to fit the other stereotype. I think everyone should also at least SOME dock/dispatch/ramp to avoid the "holier then thou" attitude.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat May 23, 2009 1:19 pm

Many of them seem to have this attitude that they are about working ground jobs.
IMHO, people coming into this industry should start from the ramp/dock and soak up some knowledge and then fly.

I fear I may have opened a can of worms here...

No you have not opened a can of worms you are expressing your opinion based on your experience in aviation.

Call me old fashioned....but I did things the "Hard Way." I did all my training at a flight school, got a university degree on the side, work the ramp for some time, flew 703, 704 and then 705. And the important thing is that I met and learned a lot from the people along the way.

You can also call me old fashioned because I never ever worked the ramp nor got a university degree, my first job in aviation was crop spraying in southern Ontario, from there I went on to fly 703 /704/705 and into management in all three types of flying.

I did not spend any time on the ramp

I personally don't think I am any less a pilot for not having worked the ramp.

What exactly did I miss that would have improved my skills as a pilot?

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