WestJet Agreement 2.0

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KAG
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by KAG »

First year works out to just over 50K salary, ESP, options/RSU , profit share on top of that (65K ish). Second year is around 55K+. it's a nice jump!
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frog legs
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by frog legs »

blahblah-why don't you leave-blahblah - typical

Here is the deal:

Rampies. I meant them no disrespect. I was justtrying to say that pilots, more than most any other group (mtce excluded) are in it for the long haul. I like TAC. They are hard working and do a great job. But point to one who's here for a long term tac career and I'll buy you a timmys. I used TAC as an example. Pilots have different benefits needs than most groups. And the industry standard reflects that. Our benefits are so far below the standard that it's laughable. And that is entirely due to the fact that we are beholden to the rest of the company in the name of "fairness".

Management. I am 95% certain that 95% of them mean well and are trustworthy. Durf is in the 95% of the 95% (that means I think he is a good guy). I reserve 5% for natural cynicism. As should you.

Our reps. Look. They are all nice people. They work hard and mean well. Perhaps I was a little harsh. Beer does that. I just think that they lost their way, and are too easily influenced. When one of them stood up for what he believed in, look where it got him. Effectively pushed out of the way for not toeing the line and pretty much the subject of a smear campain. Educate yourself. Until this system is fixed, you will not get a larger number of people willing to run. Why would they? So they can be muzzled and punted? No thanks.

The current deal is fine. It's a good start. As I said, it's what should have been out in the first place. I can live with it. In 4 years time we can add to it.

That is my opinion, and I am not alone in thinking it. Deep down even you koolaiders know I speak the truth, but you have to circle the wagons and "prove" your westjettitude with ignorant comments like "pack your bags" or "go back to where you came from".
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Last edited by frog legs on Sun May 24, 2009 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mikeecho
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by mikeecho »

frog legs wrote:blahblah-why don't you leave-blahblah - typical

Rampies: I meant them no disrespect. I was merely trying to convey the fact that pilots, more than most any other group (mtce excluded) are in it for the long haul. I like TAC. They are hard working and do a great job. But point to one who's here for a long term career and I'll buy you a timmys. I used TAC as an example.
Without giving it a seconds worth of thought, I can think of a about 2 dozen hard working and committed people who have and will make a career in TAC. Probably 60-70% would be looking to move within the company once they finish their education and make a career at WJ.
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mattedfred
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by mattedfred »

KAG wrote:First year works out to just over 50K salary, ESP, options/RSU , profit share on top of that (65K ish). Second year is around 55K+. it's a nice jump!
so using balfour's 44% increase the starting salary used to be around $25K?
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Ryan Coke2
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Ryan Coke2 »

frog legs wrote:blahblah-why don't you leave-blahblah - typical
Our reps: Look. They are all nice people. They work hard and mean well. Perhaps I was a little harsh. Beer does that. I just think that they lost their way, and are too easily influenced. When one of them stood up for what he believed in, look where it got him. Effectively pushed out of the way for not toeing the line and pretty much the subject of a smear campain. Educate yourself. The system is broken. Until it is fixed, you will not get a larger number of people willing to run. Why would they? So they can be muzzled and exiled? No thanks.
Diverse and contradictory opinions are good things, and are required. The people that have those must speak up, but still be able to function as part of a team and pull in the same direction. If they are unable to accept the decision as made by the group and move forward, they become an impedance to progress.

The same as life on the flight deck; we need challenges, questions, opinions, and accountability. We also need to work as a team once a decision is made. If a person can't do that, they harm flight safety more than help it. I see the same situation here.

Getting kicked out of 2 separate PA executives, years apart with very different groups, takes some special skills.
mattedfred wrote:so using balfour's 44% increase the starting salary used to be around $25K?
No. 25k to 50k would be a 100% increase. Actually it is about a 25% increase in base (40k-50k).
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WJ700
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by WJ700 »

"Getting kicked out of 2 separate PA executives, years apart with very different groups, takes some special skills"

You can believe that if you want, but there is much more to the story. Too bad that here, or anywhere online, isn't the place to discuss it.
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mattedfred
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by mattedfred »

WOW is my math ever bad sometimes. Sorry balfour and KAG and thanks Ryan Coke2.
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rudder
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by rudder »

2 rounds of "bargaining".

1 effectively "rejected" T/A.

50% plus 1 ratification formula.

Sounds like a union environment to me. But what's missing?

- ability to differentiate benefit requirements from other employee classifications (one size fits all formula)
- transparency in developing bargaining agenda
- applicable provisions of the CLC as it applies to certified bargaining agents.

Why not take the first step and certify the WJPA? You will require a constitution and bylaws (in other words - a set of rules). You can elect representatives (and remove them). You can elect a negotiating committee (or remove them). You can set the bargaining agenda (or modify it).

Go ahead, flame away....
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

Now if we did unionize and consequently ended up with seniority driven schedule bidding (a given), how long would it be before Frog Legs could hold weekends off? Christmas?

What about the inevitable reserve coverage system? How high up the list would an F/O have to be before he/she could avoid reserve days. Very sucky for the YHZ commuters.

And then how long before the FAs follow suit and join CUPE and mtce joins IAMAW?

The drama would be awesome though. Think of all the fun things we could talk about in the cockpit, you know, how management is screwing us all the time.

And grievances. Man those are great.

Where do I sign?
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Four1oh
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Four1oh »

jonny dangerous wrote:Now if we did unionize and consequently ended up with seniority driven schedule bidding (a given), how long would it be before Frog Legs could hold weekends off? Christmas?

What about the inevitable reserve coverage system? How high up the list would an F/O have to be before he/she could avoid reserve days. Very sucky for the YHZ commuters.

And then how long before the FAs follow suit and join CUPE and mtce joins IAMAW?

The drama would be awesome though. Think of all the fun things we could talk about in the cockpit, you know, how management is screwing us all the time.

And grievances. Man those are great.

Where do I sign?
+1
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rudder
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by rudder »

jonny dangerous wrote:Now if we did unionize and consequently ended up with seniority driven schedule bidding (a given), how long would it be before Frog Legs could hold weekends off? Christmas?

What about the inevitable reserve coverage system? How high up the list would an F/O have to be before he/she could avoid reserve days. Very sucky for the YHZ commuters.

And then how long before the FAs follow suit and join CUPE and mtce joins IAMAW?

The drama would be awesome though. Think of all the fun things we could talk about in the cockpit, you know, how management is screwing us all the time.

And grievances. Man those are great.

Where do I sign?
What a load of C.R.A.P.

You could certify the WJPA with status quo (Agreement 2.0) as your collective agreement, including the present system for pilot scheduling and vacation bidding.

A campaign of misinformation is not a valid strategy to avoid a real debate on the merits of certification, but is the most common tactic used.
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Four1oh
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Four1oh »

I'm pretty sure in a lot of cases, it's a campaign of misinformation that GETS companies certified. Been there, done that 4 times, no thanks, still not interested.
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

RUDDER, I am an employee, not management. I am not launching a 'campaign' as there is no 'debate' ongoing about unionizing at WestJet.

I must question your understanding of the process of obtaining a colective agreement however. That is probably understandable if I assume that you have never participated in the certification process.

To whit, there is no assuming the current agreement as the new collective agreement. As soon a group of employees obtains certification, then the process begins on obtaining a collective agreement, which is in essence a contract between the union, as certified bargaining agent, and the company.

As exists right now, WestJet management could, with some measure of protest, unilaterally change the terms of employment for all WestJet pilots. Unlikely as that is, that is the law.

Should the pilots or other employees at WestJet choose to unionize, WestJet management would still have the prerogative to unilaterally alter the terms of employment for those employees.

For example, profit share, stock options, you name it, off the table. And that would be fair, and expected, if an employee group, chose to put their faith in a union as opposed to their management.

Rudder, if you like, we could set up another thread in which we could enlighten each other and anyone else in the reality, pros and cons, of unionizing. Whatever, a pilot union is not likely at WestJet. But spend time fretting about it if you like.
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Rockie
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Rockie »

jonny dangerous wrote:Now if we did unionize and consequently ended up with seniority driven schedule bidding (a given), how long would it be before Frog Legs could hold weekends off? Christmas?

What about the inevitable reserve coverage system? How high up the list would an F/O have to be before he/she could avoid reserve days. Very sucky for the YHZ commuters.

And then how long before the FAs follow suit and join CUPE and mtce joins IAMAW?

The drama would be awesome though. Think of all the fun things we could talk about in the cockpit, you know, how management is screwing us all the time.

And grievances. Man those are great.

Where do I sign?


Pardon me for interjecting in a family squabble but I know a thing or two about unions as well, and unlike some here I have no bias about them one way or the other. So I can offer up a fairly unslanted opinion of what a union would mean.

There is no shortage of misinformation and manipulation of the facts from either management or unions who are in a sense running their own business. Fortunately as a group employees can usually see through the BS and will collectively make the right decision whether a union is needed or not. In one of my old companies an initial union drive from an established union was rejected by the pilots, but subsequent to that some things happened that made the pilots realize the need for protection and so an in-house legal union was accepted in another vote. So far WJ has treated you guys with enough respect and honesty that a legal union is not deemed necessary by the group, and I congratulate you and your company for that. It may not always be that way though, and if your group one day reaches the point where you feel a real union is required for protection then that will be a valid and correct choice. Maybe not for some individuals, but as a group it will be the right decision. In other words, a company becomes unionized because the employees as a group feels it is necessary however much they dislike going that route. If an employee group reaches that point then a union is necessary and the company gets what it deserves.

If you do one day get a union though, it is supposed to work for you, you don't work for it. YOU are the union. Your working conditions upon certification must by law remain frozen until a new contract is negotiated, and your new contract will be what YOU negotiate. The scenarios cited in the quote above will only be pursued by the union if you as a group want them to. It is not the union that dictates, it is you as members.
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Rotten Apple #1
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Rotten Apple #1 »

No arguments with your post Rockie.

I remember the schedule I had as a junior guy at Canada 3000. It sucked. 18 days of work a month. All weekends. No holidays off.

The senior fuckers were doing 2 YYZ-LAX-YYZ trips a week, four weeks a month. Life was good working 8-10 days a month.

I can't wait for that schedule. Probably would have that schedule for the last 10 years of my employment at WJ if the pilots unionized.

At least that's what I would want out of a union.

That and the sense of entitlement.
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KAG
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by KAG »

As it stands we don't need a union. The day MGMT stops communicating with us, and going back on agreed terms, I'm sure it would be discussed. I truly hope that day never comes.
The perks that come along with a union are out weighed (IMHO) by the lack of lifestyle as a junior FO/CPT. Plus I prefer the non union atmosphere in general– less politics and drama. To each there own.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by whiteguy »

KAG wrote:As it stands we don't need a union. The day MGMT stops communicating with us, and going back on agreed terms, I'm sure it would be discussed. I truly hope that day never comes.
The perks that come along with a union are out weighed (IMHO) by the lack of lifestyle as a junior FO/CPT. Plus I prefer the non union atmosphere in general– less politics and drama. To each there own.
Exactly, why bring in a union when its not needed. I've always felt that its the company that creates the union and have seen first hand why the union is needed. Look at Delta for example, no unions except pilots and the company has always treated their employees great!
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Biff »

jonny dangerous wrote:
To whit, there is no assuming the current agreement as the new collective agreement. As soon a group of employees obtains certification, then the process begins on obtaining a collective agreement, which is in essence a contract between the union, as certified bargaining agent, and the company.

As exists right now, WestJet management could, with some measure of protest, unilaterally change the terms of employment for all WestJet pilots. Unlikely as that is, that is the law.

Should the pilots or other employees at WestJet choose to unionize, WestJet management would still have the prerogative to unilaterally alter the terms of employment for those employees.

JD

You sometimes sound like a fairly intelligent fellow but then some of your posts make me wonder....

Looking through Canadian Labour Code I found the following;

Duty to bargain and not to change terms and conditions

50. Where notice to bargain collectively has been given under this Part,

(a) the bargaining agent and the employer, without delay, but in any case within twenty days after the notice was given unless the parties otherwise agree, shall

(i) meet and commence, or cause authorized representatives on their behalf to meet and commence, to bargain collectively in good faith, and

(ii) make every reasonable effort to enter into a collective agreement; and


(b) the employer shall not alter the rates of pay or any other term or condition of employment or any right or privilege of the employees in the bargaining unit, or any right or privilege of the bargaining agent, until the requirements of paragraphs 89(1)(a) to (d) have been met, unless the bargaining agent consents to the alteration of such a term or condition, or such a right or privilege.


From the above, I would interpret that while attempting to negotitate the collective agreement, the previous agreement would stand(profit share, stock options, you name it).

How do you interpret it so differently that;
jonny dangerous wrote: For example, profit share, stock options, you name it, off the table. And that would be fair, and expected, if an employee group, chose to put their faith in a union as opposed to their management.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by Rockie »

KAG wrote:The perks that come along with a union are out weighed (IMHO) by the lack of lifestyle as a junior FO/CPT.
This is an example of misunderstanding what a union means. It does not mean your schedule is now determined by bidding for pairings in accordance with seniority. If your group is happy with the current way you are schedule to fly / get holidays / days off etc, then that remains the same after you became a union. Once again, you are the union and you determine as a group what sort of working conditions you are going to negotiate for.

Having a union does not automatically mean you are butting heads with the company either. An enlightened company management in my opinion would be more than happy to offload things like pilot welfare issues onto a union freeing themselves up to manage the business. An enlightened management would work in partnership with an enlightened unionized pilot group to share the responsiblility for taking care of the pilots. But that's just my opinion.
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Re: WestJet Agreement 2.0

Post by balfour »

Not going to happen. Please move on.
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