Rentals and Grass Strips

[baby_fly]

I was wondering what the general rule is with rental aircraft and landing/ taking-off on grass strips? Specifically, do any of the flight schools in Southern Ontario allow licenced pilots to do this with their planes?

[ScudRunner]

Are they certified strips? then I can't think any school would have an issue.

[iflyforpie]

Most grass-strips are registered, not certified. I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't allow this though (most teach soft-field, right?).

Phone each school and ask.

[N181CS]

The flying club in Kingston allows it, the renters regularly go into Westport CRL2. I believe it has to be in the CFS though .

[Liquid Charlie]

I would be very careful -- most clubs have very strict rules when it comes to rentals. It might go to the extreme of you must register any destination. If you went somewhere - didn't advise them and had an incident the insurance would be void. In the bygone years I know of a rental that left the designated "local flying area" and crashed - the estate was sued and paid for all damages. --

[Matthew]

do any of the flight schools in Southern Ontario allow licenced pilots to do this with their planes?

More important than 'do they allow it', is are you able to do it safely yourself?. The flight school will likely allow you to fly it anywhere but make sure you are comfortable with soft ground before doing it yourself. The school just rents the plane, you are the PIC and responsable for it.

How you get comfortable is up to you. Sometimes just some practice of hard surfaces is good or it might be worth it to have an instructor show you the ropes.

Matt.

[PAJ]

I used to rent out of Peninsulair and they did not allow it. At Brantford now and they also do not allow it. Someone told me it has to do with their Insurance. Like iflyforpie said, you are best to phone each school/club and ask.

[Doc]

I don't get it. Grass is MORE forgiving than pavement. Do these "schools" think it's some big mystery? It should be a requirement to land on grass. Jam Tarts!

[PAJ]

I don't get it. Grass is MORE forgiving than pavement. Do these "schools" think it's some big mystery? It should be a requirement to land on grass. Jam Tarts!

Well, there's the disconnect. Pretty much everyone is of that opinion; I expect based on experience but nonetheless - not allowed in most places. I for one would love to do it. Go up with an instructor for a bit at first and then let me at it.

[Posthumane]

My instructor not only allows it, but encourages it. I have flown with him to a few of the local grass strips while doing my PPL, and he also told me I should practice at some of them myself during solo flights if I feel comfortable. As was mentioned before though, make sure you do feel comfortable doing it as you are the PIC and if you prang it, you can't blame the school for letting you do it. If it's a strip that you haven't flown into recently, do a couple of low passes to check the condition of the strip. Many of the ones around here receive only seasonal maintenance, and in the early spring time can have huge weeds and potholes sprouting from them.

Of course, my instructor is pretty liberal with what he allows. From what I've been hearing on this site, my school is one of the few that teaches recovery from fully developed spins as well.

[PAJ]

My instructor not only allows it, but encourages it. I have flown with him to a few of the local grass strips while doing my PPL, and he also told me I should practice at some of them myself during solo flights if I feel comfortable.

Where is this?
PM me please if you don't want to say here. Thanks.

[square]

My school was so anal about grass strips.. wouldnt let you take it anywhere it'd been raining in the last month or something, nobody got to use them. But then the local club from where I am here, I hear horror stories about lol, friend of mine when she was training here would take it to every lousy mudpit of a lodge strip there was and nobody even asked questions.

[Pete]

If its insurance...its hard to hold that against the school.

But like someone said, its more forgiving the asphalt, I would like to think. Your best bet is to call the operator before going in to check the conditions, start out with something with a bit of length and free of obstacles, and have some fun.

On dry grass...I to, dont see the big problem for any licensed pilot.

[rampking]

It all depends, I know the flight school I went to wouldn't let us land in Harbour Grace. It had to be with an instructor. But that place got pretty soft and had a large obstacle short final. A well kept strip shouldn't be an issue.

King

[AntiNakedMan]

I wish schools would be a little more careful with letting pilots take their planes on gravel; I've had my aircraft be the victim of thoughtlessly misdirected run-ups and propwash on more than one occasion. I've seen stationary run-ups without sweeping or over the pads, brakes on and full power at the end of the runway before rolling, idling at 1000rpm downwind... the list goes on.

Mind you, I see a lot of the pilots who get paid to fly do all of these as well...

[FlaplessDork]

I require my approval for Grass Strips, and usually dual only. For a few reasons. Outside renters are my biggest risk. I have no idea how good their training was, and they are not familiar with our regulations and often break regulations on purpose. Most grass strips around here are short with obsticals and not maintained very well. I personally have gotten stuck on a soft field that was a bit soggy. Now I am out an airplane for the flight school and out revenue for the school. I have heard of airplanes being stuck for weeks because a renter thought he could land in a snow covered grass strip.

If I know the renter and their capability, I will let them go. After much discussion on the conditions.

[Big Pistons Forever]

IMO FTU's should require CPL students do some of their dual short/soft lessons on grass and gravel strips. If the CFI is not confident in the ability of his/her instructors to do this then I would suggest it is up to the CFI to teach them.

[scm]

Just make sure the field has been recently inspected. At my old flight school the citrabria hit a badger hole and nosed in. And that was on a registered strip.

[teacher]

I agree that CPL students MUST have exposure to short and narrow grass strips but there in lies the problem. Most grass strips are short and narrow and that alone makes it more likely that an inexperienced renter will pile it in. Schools don't make a lot of money on rentals and it's just not worth the risk.

I used to take my students into little turf fields all the time, a low level diversion to an unknown air field followed by a precautionary approach and soft field landing is a great way to introduce them to the real world they will incounter when they are out working. This excercise is even better in less than ideal vis and ceilings, it's a real eye opener and life saver for when they get into this situation for real.

[ScudRunner]

Reminds me of a few years ago up in the Yukon, I was sitting around shooting at fly's with an Elastic band when I heard a plane land. I got up off my ass to say hi and see if they needed some gas, the pilot had already hopped out and was taking pictures I wandered up and said hi. He greeted me with a big smile and said his buddy was behind him in a 152 and he was going to get some shots of his first off strip landing! I looked around and said oh wheres he landing?? right here he's about 5 minutes back, I scratched my head looked around at the Haines Junction airport which is 5000X100 compacts Gravel. Anyway he brought it in just nicely and took some trophy shots and away they went.

So do schools have restriction on landing on anything but pavement?
Reason # 252 I'm glad I didn't go to a flight School or College.

I would argue that PPL need this exposure more so or just as much as a CPL, lets face it alot (Not All) of commercial pilots start instructing then get right seat in some Turbine IFR machine that only goes Pavement to pavement or long and wide crushed gravel strips up north. A Weekend Warrior who got his PPL perhaps would be more likely to head out to a fly in at a small grass strip or land on a beach to go camping for the weekend and lets face it PPL's are not flying every day so perhaps some extra training in this aspect will keep them safer down the road when they maybe only fly a few times a year. Food for thought lets raise the bar for all aviation.

[MichaelP]

My solo long cross country was into a grass airfield... In fact in England they'd think you were mad not allowing people to land at grass airfields.
Most schools there allow landings at licensed grass airfields and require permission to go into farm strips.

If a school tells you their aircraft are not insured to land on grass runways their aircraft are not properly insured and you should go elsewhere to a school that has proper coverage.

Grass was used on the original airfields! It is the most natural substance a little aeroplane can land on.

Of course you should know the performance of your aircraft.
An aircraft that has a bad reputation on short strips is called a Cherokee 140, and yet with the right technique it doesn't perform too badly, just know when to select two notches of flap.

One of my first experiences here was when an instructor wanted to go into North Pender Island in the Cessna 172. He'd looked at all the instructors in the flying club and thought NO! And then he saw me.
That club strickly restricts its pilots in what they can do... So there we were taking OOV into North Pender. Piece of cake, but you need to know what you are doing.

At Pro I took students in there often in the Cessna 152s and the Citabria.
It's slightly more risky in a Diamond but we have the SportStar.

If a school does not give its students some grass field experience these students end up as terrified instructors who in turn scare their students off grass fields because they themselves had suffered this serious shortfall in their training.

This is someone landing the 'Japanese Airforce' C GZKK at North Pender:

[Cat Driver]

I can't let Michael P be the only one that relates tales of flying all by himself so here is a story about landing on a short unprepared area.

Many moons ago in the age of the wooden ships and the iron men I was doing the sked run up the Hudson Bay with a PBY, when I got to Povungnituk I found the harbor was frozen over with a thin cover of ice.

The weather was crap and rather than chancing flying back to Great Whale River I decided I could land on the winter strip....the wind was right down the strip at about ten to fifteen knots which helped me convince myself I could safely land there.

Anyhow after I landed and got rid of the sixteen passengers and the freight I decided to walk the strip and see how long it was, so all three crew members did the old walk and count the steps trick, we all decided that it was sixteen hundred feet usable..

It was not grass though it was sand and tundra soil, when the ice melted the next day the FO and I went back out to the winter strip and took off empty and landed in the water where we fueled up and loaded the south bound passengers and fu.ked off back south.


There you go Michael now its your turn again.

[Shiny Side Up]

I think a distiction should be made here on schools teaching people the skills to make use of non-pavement landings and renting airplanes to people to land on non-pavement runways. As an instructor I do my utmost to make sure a student gets all the experience they need in this regard, and in that matter student's I've taught, I usually have no problem letting them take the airplanes to non-paved runways. Renters whom I have no experience with how they were instructed, I usually restrict in this regard, and will make exception if they can prove to me they will use all of their due dilligence and care for the airplane. Most I can determine very quickly that I will not be releasing the airplane for them to travel to their grass or gravel destination. For example I had this conversation this weekend:

"Have you been there before?"

"No"

"Have you called ahead to check the conditions?"

"No"

"Have you checked the NOTAMs about it?"

"No"

"Have you looked it up in the CFS?

"No"

"Then you aren't going there."

I'm also reminded of a fellow who took one of the airplanes to a runway and brought it back covered in cowshit, which of course made it unsuitable for the renter who followed (having a liberal ammount of the aforementioned manuer on the inside as well) As with a lot of things the inconsideration of a few has ruined the opportunity for many.

[MichaelP]

I am an expert in the subject of effluence.
There are several different colours and textures of manure.
Sheep s**t is bad and turns your exposed skin bright green.
Cow pats should be soaked in warm water for several minutes prior to removal.
North Pender suffers from goose droppings and deer muck... A little harder to remove.

Is is important that the aeroplane is put back to the same condition as you found it.

The big problem these days is the flagrant disregard of the aviation regulations by masses of insects who insist on colliding with aeroplanes.
Soak these blighters in warm soapy water and then remove carefully. A good soak makes this onerous task easier.

BTW in England they train sheep to clear off the runway when an aeroplane does a pass prior to landing.
It's really funny to see them obediently go to the side and then wander back after the aeroplane has taxied in.

[Hedley]

Free advice, worth what you paid me for it:

If you don't know what you're doing, before you land
on a grass strip, walk it first. If your feet sink into the
muck - or if mud even sticks to the bottom of your
boots - don't land there.

You will learn, if you have the patience to do so, that
a grass strip may have wet areas - which you want to
avoid - at one end or the other, or on one side or the
other. These wet areas are a much darker green than
the drier part of the grass strip.

There. You've already learned something.

Another common problem with grass strips is that
they are sometimes short, with obstacles. Be very
careful to look for obstacles at both ends. Sometimes
electrical wires are very hard to see, but they are not
good to hit, despite this.

Also, because the grass strip might be short, you
really need to dig into your POH/AFM and make sure
that you fly the correct approach and landing
procedure - tacking on an extra 20 mph is NOT
recommended, even if it makes you feel good - and
to calculate your landing and takeoff distances.
It does without saying that you need to review
the correct takeoff procedure for obstacle clearing.

Strips often have upslope and downslopes which
you will NEVER see on a certified runway. If it
is severe enough, consider always landing uphill
and taking off downhill, regardless of the wind.

Strips are sometimes cut out of a forest, with
tall trees on both side. Be very suspicious about
windshear when dropping below the treeline, esp
when there is a strong crosswind. I know of more
than one high-time pilot that's wiped their landing
gear off doing this.

Anyways. If you know what you're doing, grass
is great. I love landing on grass - it is the most
natural runway surface for a taildragger. You can
even land a little sideways - or a little hard - and
the forgiving grass will let you get away with
things that pavement would NEVER forgive.

Last piece of free advice, for which I am sure I
will be bitterly critized and ridiculed by the low-time
keyboard jockeys here: Don't land on a short grass
strip until you can precisely control your airspeed
on final.

An amazing number of low-time pilots blow my mind
with plus and minus 10 and 15 mph airspeed excursions
on final. They may or may not touch down in the first
2,000 feet. They may or may not first touch down on
the nosewheel of their light trainer

If you fly like that, don't dare try to land someplace
which demands an accurate approach be flown.