July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
Widow
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 4592
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Vancouver Island

July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Widow »

Aging plane part blamed for crash
Cylinder in float aircraft's engine failed
By: Kevin Rollason
23/05/2009 1:00 AM

WINNIPEG — An aging airplane engine part is being blamed for the forced landing of a float plane into a marsh last year.

The Transportation Safety Board of Canada says the failure of a cylinder in the engine of a Noorduyn Norseman Mark V, operated by Gogal Air Services Ltd., caused the plane to lose power 10 minutes into a 20-minute flight from Burntwood Lake Lodge to Snow Lake on July 6, 2008.

The seven-page report issued by the TSB said the pilot tried to reach a lake about five kilometres away.

But when he realized he couldn't, he put the plane down in the marsh.

The plane was damaged when it clipped some trees before stopping.

The TSB's Peter Hildebrand said there were no injuries to the pilot or the seven passengers on board.

Hildebrand said Friday the final impact was soft enough that the plane's emergency locator beacon didn't go off, so the pilot radioed another company aircraft for help.

Hildebrand said the cylinder failed because of metal fatigue, caused either by microscopic porous metal left during the manufacturing process, or by stress, or by a combination of both.

"The parts are old and every now and then problems arise," he said.

"Was the porosity the issue or wear and tear? Some things can't be established.

"How do you prevent this? It's not an easy question. Transport Canada has looked at it and issued advisories on the best way to inspect them.

"But, in the end, I don't know if anything is 100 per cent fool proof."

The TSB investigation found that the part failed about halfway between inspections and more than 200 hours before the engine's next scheduled overhaul.

The TSB report said the type of engine in the plane began to be manufactured in 1925 and hasn't been built since 1960. The engine is in both the Norseman and the DHC-3 Otter aircraft.

No new cylinders have been manufactured since 1960, but there is still a large inventory of unused parts available.

According to Transport Canada records, the plane flown by Gogal was built in 1948, and has been registered by the company since 1995.

There are 12 Norseman Mark V currently registered in Canada while there are 126 DHC-3 Otters.

Bill Zuk, of the Manitoba Aviation Council, said the Norseman planes are "a sturdy plane. They are well built.

"They were the first Canadian plane designed for the north... it's the workhorse of Canada's north."

Zuk said the planes are so respected that given a choice, many pilots will choose to take the controls of a Norseman instead of a more modern plane.

Bob Polinuk, owner of Selkirk Air, a company that works on these types of planes, said the first one was built in 1934.

CADORS Number: 2008C2253 Reporting Region: Prairie & Northern

Occurrence Information
Occurrence Type: Accident Occurrence Date: 2008/07/06
Occurrence Time: 1400 Z Day Or Night: day-time
Fatalities: 0 Injuries: 0

Canadian Aerodrome ID: CJE4 Aerodrome Name: Snow Lake
Occurrence Location: 15 NM N of Snow Lake (CJE4) Province: Manitoba
Country: CANADA World Area: North America

Reported By: NAV CANADA AOR Number: 96064-V1
TSB Class Of Investigation: 3 TSB Occurrence No.: A08C0145
Event Information
ELT/SAR/comm search
Engine malfunction - other
Forced landing
Loss of power
Aircraft Information
Flight #:
Aircraft Category: Aeroplane Country of Registration: CANADA
Make: NOORDUYN Model: NORSEMAN MK V
Year Built: 1948 Amateur Built: No
Engine Make: PRATT & WHITNEY-USA Engine Model: R-1340-AN-1
Engine Type: Reciprocating Gear Type: Sea
Phase of Flight: Cruise Damage: Substantial
Owner: GOGAL AIR SERVICES LTD. Operator: GOGAL AIR SERVICES LTD. (4477)
Operator Type: Commercial

Detail Information
User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/07/07
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: A Gogal Air Service Noorduyn Norseman with 8 people on board, was en route from Burntwood Lake Lodge to Snow Lake, MB when the aircraft experienced a loss of power sufficient enough that the aircraft could not maintain level flight. The pilot made a forced landing in a swamp approximately 15 NM north of Snow Lake. There were no injuries but the aircraft received substantial damage. TSB is currently assessing the accident and may send investigators to the site.

User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/07/08
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE TSB reported that the Gogal Air Services Noorduyn Mk. V Norseman was en route from Burntwood Lodge, MB, to Snow Lake. About 15 NM north of Snow Lake, engine performance degraded (P. & W. R-1340) and the pilot carried out a forced landing in a marsh. The pilot and seven passengers exited the aircraft without serious injuries. The aircraft sustained substantial damage.

User Name: Ridley, Rod
Date: 2008/07/23
Further Action Required: No
O.P.I.: System Safety
Narrative: UPDATE TSB has classified this investigation as a Class 3 and a Minister's Observer has been appointed from System Safety.
The TSB report is not yet up on the website, perhaps because it has not yet been translated. A Class 3 investigation though. I wondered what was "knew" to be learned.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
snoopy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1118
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 pm
Location: The Dog House

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by snoopy »

Guess reporters never really check all the facts... only about 31 of those 126 Otters still have 1340 engines on them - the rest have all been converted. :(

Who the heck wants to fly a Norseman? :roll: The Otter is waaaayyyyyy better! (IMHO) :wink:

Transport Canada could easily solve this problem by requiring the number of hours on a cylinder to be tracked, and a life limit imposed. At present, as long as cylinders meet the tolerances at overhaul, they can continously be recycled into service. There is no way to detect metal fatigue until it happenss - so...

But hey, why impose a life limit on a known problem - that could increase the safety margins for the cylinders;and by default engine, aircraft, and people's lives; plus ensure radials will be around for years to come - that might cost money!
---------- ADS -----------
 
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
X Driver
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by X Driver »

The Otter has a 1340 P&W engine but it is geared and different than the Norseman engine. The Norseman and Harvard share the same engine. The cylinders that fail most often are ones that have been chromed back to size after boring. Unfortunatley when the threads fail the head comes off the cylinder barrel and pulls the intake pipe out of the manifold resulting in engine failure. The engine well actually run up to about 1000 RPM so you can taxi to the dock if your lucky enough to land on a good piece of water. In my experience the engine usually fails on the first power reduction. Keeping a good eye on the cyls. where the head and barrel connect could save a crew from walking home. If ary oily looking residue is coming from the area where the barrel and cyl head join I would get it looked at.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Widow
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 4592
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Widow »

snoopy wrote:Guess reporters never really check all the facts... only about 31 of those 126 Otters still have 1340 engines on them - the rest have all been converted.
Do you think those numbers were produced by the press? Would they even know how to verify? I had assumed they were pulled from the TSB report ... perhaps there is a recommendation contained along the lines of what you've suggested snoopy. But again, what would be "new"? I still fail to understand why this accident was a class "3".
---------- ADS -----------
 
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
hydraulic fluid
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:00 am

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by hydraulic fluid »

I am sure there is a time limit on the cylinders or an ad to that effect...
---------- ADS -----------
 
X Driver
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 69
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by X Driver »

No time limit on the cylinders that I'm aware of, they can run till there worn beyond limits or fail.
---------- ADS -----------
 
hydraulic fluid
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:00 am

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by hydraulic fluid »

I am sure there is,can always check with Peter Hilderbrand
---------- ADS -----------
 
Investigator
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:31 pm

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Investigator »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Investigator on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Widow
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 4592
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Widow »

Thanks for providing the TSB report, Investigator. Interesting to see the reference to AV-2007-02, which came about as a result of one of our expert's research into the accident which claimed my husband. Also glad to see the error about numbers in service is a press error and not a TSB error.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Hedley »

The implicit assumption above is that new cylinders are
wonderful and perfect and solve male pattern baldness.

Male bovine excrement. Over the decades, I have
received AD after AD about faults in newly manufactured
cylinders from virtually every manufacturer.

Lycoming crankshaft, anyone? :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Widow
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 4592
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Widow »

Who said anything about new being better? These cylinders are now between 50 and 85 years old for goodness sake! If there has been no tracking of cylinder life, how on earth can you know if they've reached the end of their usefulness? Can they really go on being overhauled forever???
---------- ADS -----------
 
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Hedley »

These cylinders are now between 50 and 85 years old for goodness sake!
Who said anything about new being better?
You just did.

I'm not sure anyone cares about the facts, but cylinders crack and
fail for lots of reasons. For example, I fly a Cessna 421 which has
a fearsome reputation for cracking NEW cylinders, because of
ham-fisted pilots. Also, I remember an Aztec that was used for
multi-engine training, and flipping back through the journey log,
I remember it had 5 cylinders changed at the last 50 hour inspection :shock:
---------- ADS -----------
 
Widow
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 4592
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Widow »

Newer, not necessarily new.

Can they go on being overhauled forever without losing their strength? What about the shortage of parts for cylinders that haven't been made in 50 years? What happened to the replacement cylinders that were also found faulty, haven't those been fixed in ten years?

Don't the circumstances you describe warrant improvement of some system?

Why hasn't the TSB made any recommendations within this report? Was something learned, or wasn't it?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8132
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by iflyforpie »

Hedley wrote:The implicit assumption above is that new cylinders are
wonderful and perfect and solve male pattern baldness.

Male bovine excrement. Over the decades, I have
received AD after AD about faults in newly manufactured
cylinders from virtually every manufacturer.

Lycoming crankshaft, anyone? :roll:
I just had to retire four cylinders off our 172 (O-320-E2D) with only 800hrs SNEW because we went with the aftermarket ECi cylinders (AD 2006-12-07). Leak downs were 75+ and oil consumption was practically non-existent. There is also an AD out for new Superior cylinders on the same engine (2007-04-19R1) and yet another one for ECi (2008-19-05) which requires repetitive visual inspections and hard-time replacement for some and early replacement for others.

Obviously engine parts can't last forever, but the bewildering number of engine ADs coming out regarding new parts and recent overhauls makes me wonder if 'new' is all that it is cracked up to be.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Hedley »

With all due respect, Widow, you are fixating on cylinders.

The same argument (old is bad, new is good) could
also be made with respect to wing spars. Ever heard
of Chalk Air?

And what about old insulation on wires? Old switches?

Really, I think you are arguing that we ground all
aircraft after they have reached some arbitrary
calendar age which is to be determined by a reporter.

Heck, how about we just ground all aircraft, regardless
of age? Wouldn't that make aviation a lot safer?
---------- ADS -----------
 
iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 8132
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by iflyforpie »

hydraulic fluid wrote:I am sure there is a time limit on the cylinders or an ad to that effect...
Nope.

AD99-11-02 requires visual inspection of the cylinders for head separation every 250 hrs for cowled engines and florescent dye penetrant inspection at overhaul. Dye-pen is used in many other applications to detect failures before they become catastrophic.

Other than that, it is visual inspections and service limits at overhaul.

What I find amazing is the lack of ADs for the Norseman. Going on to the CAWIS site and typing in a Norseman registration, I get nine ADs. Nine. Compare that to thirty-eight for the new, modern, Cirrus SR22.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
Widow
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 4592
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Widow »

Hedley wrote:With all due respect, Widow, you are fixating on cylinders.
So not true, Hedley.
Hedley wrote:Really, I think you are arguing that we ground all
aircraft after they have reached some arbitrary
calendar age which is to be determined by a reporter.
You always have the same argument against me. It's getting a little old. Since I can only assume you still fail to understand, I shall try, once again, to explain my point of view, in simplest terms ...

The problems of "aging aircraft" are not consistently appreciated between large and small aircraft. Peoples lives depend on continued "respect" for how age of parts can contribute to failures. Honestly Hedley, considering what you do, and what you do it with, I would think you would understand this concern.

If existing ADs do not rectify old problems, then new solutions need to be found. Why do you think new(er) parts have so many ADs? Is it because the authorities approve things too easily? Is it because the new(er) parts/aircraft are monitored more strictly? Or is it a combination of these two things, and/or something else entirely?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Hedley
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 10430
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 6:40 am
Location: CYSH
Contact:

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Hedley »

Have you considered going back to school and getting an engineering degree?
---------- ADS -----------
 
snoopy
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1118
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 pm
Location: The Dog House

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by snoopy »

The issue here isn't whether or not new products are made to better standards and quality control, the issue is metal fatigue and the lack of service life limits on an item subject to intense heat cycles.

And it probably isn't necessary to degrade to insults when opinions differ...

Some interesting reading below:

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/184271-1.html

of particular interest for those with a limited attention span for a long article:

"A heavily loaded steel part can be expected to endure ten million cycles or so before failing from metal fatigue. That might sound like a lot, but a connecting rod, crankshaft throw or cylinder hold-down stud gets that many cycles in about 140 hours of flight time.

With steel, there is a stress level below which fatigue failures do not occur: the fatigue limit. A part loaded below the fatigue limit may eventually develop fatigue cracks, but they won't grow to the point of fracture. Therefore, a steel part (such as a crankshaft) can theoretically remain in service forever, provided it doesn't corrode or wear beyond service limits.

In sharp contrast, aluminum and other nonferrous metals have no fatigue limit. No matter how low the stress level, eventually the metal will suffer a fatigue failure if it is subjected to enough cycles. This means that aluminum parts are inherently life-limited. For some parts, such as wing spars, the frequency of stress cycles may be so low that the predicted life is ridiculously long. But for high-cycle parts, such as cylinder heads, crankcase halves and propeller blades, the fatigue life is very significant, as my cracked #5 cylinder head demonstrated."


Cheers,
snoopy
---------- ADS -----------
 
“Never interrupt someone doing something you said couldn’t be done.” Amelia Earhart
squawk
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:23 pm

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by squawk »

Can anyone inform me if this was Norseman CF-ECG? This was my Great uncles bird in the 40's 50's and 60's while with Hollinger Ungava Transport and Labrador Mining and Exploration. Couldn't find the registration in the Cadors report. Interested sentimentally!


http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contribut ... e/7983.htm
---------- ADS -----------
 
Widow
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 4592
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:57 pm
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: July 6, 2008 Norseman down in marsh

Post by Widow »

According to the TSB report, it was CF-ECG, serial number N29-43.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Former Advocate for Floatplane Safety
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”