SID departure and ATC

[wan2fly99]

Saturday flyibng out of Oshawa ona IFR flight plan

Clearence given to fly Oshawa-1 (runway heading to 3000 feet)

After departing contacted terminal at 2000 feet.

ATC gave me the following: when able turn left direct YSO climb and maintain 4000 feet.

I turned after this: I believe I should have climed to 3000 feet first then turned or was I okay to turn left and got to YSO before 3000

I know ATC said when able: is that the catch phrase

Any help is appreciated

[BTD]

Unless there was Noise Abatement, you were fine.

BTD

[Hedley]

when able turn left

My main concern when I hear this phrase is obstacle & terrain clearance.

You probably make an excessive amount of noise when you hit a tower, too

[Rockie]

Obstacle clearance is your responsibility, and that kind of instruction doesn't relieve you of complying with noise abatement procedures. If there is any doubt in your mind you can either decline a clearance or, in this case, fly the original SID since the controller said "when able".

[Flybabe]

When ATC requests a procedure "when able", YOU make the decision when it's cool to turn (within reason, of course). If visibility isn't all that great and you aren't comfortable turning until the 3000', then that's when you are able. If it's clear at 700 feet, you can turn. The ATC request to turn gives you permission to deviate (as requested) from the SID.

Of course, if you're still climbing runway heading to 8000', they might change that to an instruction.

Airmanship...

[Pratt X 3]

At Oshawa, there is a restriction on departure of no turns below 1000' ASL. This is for noise. Your were above 2000' when you were given the clearance to YSO so that is not a factor. Sounds like you were departing off either runway 22 or 30 with the left turn to YSO. Unless they have improved the RADAR coverage in the last few years, you probably weren't RADAR identified until you were above 3000' or so. Until you heard "RADAR identified", you are solely responsible for obstacle/terrain clearance. After that phrase is uttered, then you and ATC share the responsibility. So you were on the hook to ensure that you remained clear of any obstacles/terrain and when you considered it safe, you could make the turn towards YSO. The SID shows runway heading to 3000' so it implies that as long as you cross the departure end of the runway above 35' and maintained 200'/NM to 3000', you shouldn't hit anything straight out. So waiting until 3000' would work. You could also look at the MSA to determine what altitude would ensure clearance in the direction you were headed.

[wan2fly99]

Thanks everybody for the replies

Was departing 12 and cleared to YSO

I beleive he did say: radar Identified, when able left turn YSO climb and maintain 4000.

For renewal IFR I am doing friday, I just don't want to make the mistake.

So I would stay on runway heading to 3000 and then turn.

But if he say turn left, climb and maintain 4000 direct YSO that would be an ATC instruction to follow immediatly Correct?

The phrase 'when able' then that is your descration

[roger.roger]

read back what you are going to do. i.e. "at or above 3000 left turn YSO" if it's incorect they will tell you so. some of these ***deleted*** ATC types got little man syndrom and it's their responsablity to ensure you understand WTF their talking about even though they don't publish MANOPS. after 10 000 hrs people are still confused about WTF they say sometimes so don't be intimadated by them and don't do something on a request that you don't understand and arn't comfortable with. Remeber they work for you not the other way around. just don't say "What ***deleted*** are you talking ***deleted***" as that results in a fine

[Steve Baker]

You are ok to turn as soon as you want in the example you gave. It would be rare to receive that clearance without radar ID but, as the runway is assessed as "1/2", as long as you crossed the departure end at 35', are above 400' agl before you turn and continue to maintain a 200' per nm. climb gradient, you have satisfied the obstacle clearance requirement. The noise abatement procedure specifies no turns below 1000', so you are fine. When doing your ride, remember that the noise abatement procedure could be a question during the oral phase. Also, if memory serves, noise abatement in YOO specifies no lower than 1459' during circling procedure in VMC. It is relatively common for both students and instructors to ignore that part of the procedure but, it is a violation.

On a similar note, it would be nice if MANOPS would specify the use of "after noise abatement" in the voice procedure when issuing a turn clearance before noise abatement procedure has been complied with. If it already does, it would be nice if pilots were so informed, it would reduce some unneeded transmitions.

Steve

[wan2fly99]

Thanks for the reply Will remember to read those noise abitment again

[roger.roger]

as a side note. no one wants to fly a 99.

[flyinhigh]

Your main concern on that type of instruction, When Able. Is Noise Abatment. If you have already complied with the Noise procedure than have at er. If you have Not, than stay on the published departure until you have.

Best advice, when in doubt. Ask again, or fly the full departure than do the instruction.


My question is to the ATCer's. Why give this type of clearance, we see it all the time, especially out east.

When able do this, so guys are going, we're able lets go. OH violation now.

Why not say, Turn here. Or after noise do this.

Curious as to why the grey area, As a controller may not see like a grey area. But when you are blasting off at 200+ knots doing checks, talking and flying a procedure, it is a grey area. Thats the point we don't need confusion.

Thanks

[roger.roger]

Why not say, Turn here. Or after noise do this.

center gives radar identified transponder goes off. any questions tell them to prove it in the tribunal. at least SMS might eliminate the confustion after the first one gets violated.

if you get restricted on altitude transponder goes on "recycled"

[kevenv]

Down east I use "at your discretion" when you are below the Min vectoring altitude. If you are at or above it I will tell you to turn.

On another note, where do you all fly that everyone is so quick to violate you for every perceived infraction? Come fly with me lol.

[Hedley]

where do you all fly that everyone is so quick to violate you for every perceived infraction?

Down east

A couple years back, I received a call out of the blue from
a Transport Enforcement Inspector. I was told that if I flew
my Pitts to Atlantic Canada - I never had, before - she would
lay charges against me.

Deal.

I will never, ever fly in such hostile territory.

[kevenv]

where do you all fly that everyone is so quick to violate you for every perceived infraction?

Down east

A couple years back, I received a call out of the blue from
a Transport Enforcement Inspector. I was told that if I flew
my Pitts to Atlantic Canada - I never had, before - she would
lay charges against me.

Deal.

I will never, ever fly in such hostile territory.

But what does that have to do with ATC? The number of times that I have seen a/c "violated" by the ACC are few and far between and off the top of my head the majority are due to SID busts.

[Pratt X 3]

I think the "when able" in this case (departing CYOO) was when you are receiving YSO. Non-GPS, using the VOR, this means tuning, identifying and then figuring out which radial you are on. "When able" gives you the time to figure that out. (GPS: DIRECT TO>ENTER) If you were RADAR identified, the controller could have given you a vector but since it appeared to be a training flight, let you figure out how to get there.

On a side note, nice tangent this thread took. I can never understand the Pilot vs. ATC thing. Why get so bent out of shape when ATC slows you, vectors you off course, etc.? Some guys get all offended when this happens. Roll with it. Unless you are on fire, fumes or got a prairie dog happening, what will a couple of minutes difference make? It all goes in the logbook anyways. Once upon a time, as a rather new captain, I threw a tantrum after seemingly getting the runaround from ATC. The guy sitting next to me thought I had lost it, the way I was carrying on. Looking back at that, I feel really stupid for that and I use that to keep "grounded" when things like that happen now. So the next time you think ATC is out to get you, take a deep breath and just roll with it. It will keep the blood pressure down and the people around you won't think you're loosing it. Sure, question it if its unsafe or it seems like they have forgotten about you. Can't we just all get along?

[kevenv]

or it seems like they have forgotten about you.

now that I HAVE done lol.

[RoyalCanadianRegiment]

Wantofly99

What I typically do in this case is to cancel the SID then tell the pilot to turn left/right and climb on course. It doesn't matter if you are radar identified or not, ATC is not responsible for terrain clearance until the words "Vectors for..." are said. With a SID being cancelled and a TL/TR COC no vectors are being initiated and it is the pilot's responsibility to avaiod terrain and to turn when it is safe to do so. Hope this helps.

Cheers

RCR
http://www.learning-to-fly.com

[The Old Fogducker]

RCR ... good to see you post.

A very long time ago, I was in what is now 4 RCR ...it was 3 RCR then and it sure made a man of me.

I don't have access to a set of Oshawa plates, but if its a SID, its been assessed and if you fly the minimum climb gradient of 200 feet per nautical mile or the minimum stated on the aerodrome chart, you are assured of terrain clearance up to safe altitude.

Wish I had a plate to look at so I could be absolutely certain and provide the applicable altitudes and routings for you.

The Old Fogducker

[joco]

Here's a link to an expired set
http://www.czyz.ca/files/charts/CAP4_pdf/CYOO.pdf

[AuxBatOn]

I think the "when able" in this case (departing CYOO) was when you are receiving YSO. Non-GPS, using the VOR, this means tuning, identifying and then figuring out which radial you are on. "When able" gives you the time to figure that out. (GPS: DIRECT TO>ENTER) If you were RADAR identified, the controller could have given you a vector but since it appeared to be a training flight, let you figure out how to get there.

DR is an approved method of navigation. When I get a PP direct clearance to a far away station, I'll turn in the general direction of the station, tune the station, see if I can get the signal from the station, if not, request an initial vector from ATC when above MRVA. When I can get the signal, ID it, then tell ATC I'm able direct at this time. Never had an issue doing that. That is, of course, for a non-RNAV airplane.

At that point in your training (IFR), it's about ressource management, ATC is one of them. That's how I "figure out how to get there"

[Pratt X 3]

Sure, DR is an acceptable method. I usually use TLAR; That Looks About Right. However, I was wearing my flight test hat with the whole tune and identify thing. Not the same as real life but that's training. For reference:

b. select and identify the navigation aids associated with the proposed enroute phase;

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publi ... 39/ex5.htm

[AuxBatOn]

Sure, DR is an acceptable method. I usually use TLAR; That Looks About Right. However, I was wearing my flight test hat with the whole tune and identify thing. Not the same as real life but that's training. For reference:

b. select and identify the navigation aids associated with the proposed enroute phase;

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publi ... 39/ex5.htm

I did this on a few rides and never had an issue (including the initial ride). You will eventually tune and ID. To me, someone that does that shows airmanship: why head in the wrong direction while you could be navigating towards your destination (or 1st enroute fix), while you're waiting to get a good signal?

[The Old Fogducker]

Really pressed for time. Sorry to be so short.

Takeoff runway 30, fly heading 302 (no correction for wind) .. cross the departure end of the runway at 35 ft or greater, climb at a minimum of 200 ft per nm up to 3,000 ft. Sector altitude in NW corner of the diagram is 2,600 ft. Terrain clearance is guaranteed by the airspace criteria. No obstacle can penetrate the departure slope which is 152 ft per nm. There is a note about the power lines 215 ft high at 1.1 nm off the departure end of the runway, which you will clear if at least 200 ft per nm climb is maintained.

If no SID had been assigned, you could have turned as low as 400 ft and continued the climb.

Once the controller said "when able, turn left ....." you could have turned as long as you were over 400 ft AAE.

Fog