Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

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Aug
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Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by Aug »

Level of Service Reviews - Vancouver Airspace Review Phase II (pls ignore if previously posted)

As I am sure many of you aviators in the Lower Mainland of BC know that there are many changes coming to the airspace effective 2 July and it doesn't look pretty. In fact, in many ways it seems more restrictive in an already restrictive environment....
Changes include airspace structure, classification, operating frequencies, routes, VFR check points, control zone boundaries, Victoria Harbour TAF, en route traffic advisory service over part of the Georgia Strait, airport arrival and departure procedures, tower hours of operation at Langley, additional transponder required airspace and operational notes.
There are some meetings scheduled and I would think that it would be a good thing to attend...

Schedule of briefings

PDF of new airspace

Changes Explained...


Yay! :(
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Old Dog Flying
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by Old Dog Flying »

As in the past, the user meetings get the operators nowhere. The NavCanada "Experts" have already made up their minds and we, the customers have absolutely no input. Anything that we suggest is thrown aside and "the company" does whatever it pleases...in the name of flight safety and TCAA lets them get away with it!

Last year Langley was made a Class C airport however the manditory transponder with Mode C is useless because there are no transponder returns to be had below 800' and in the north and north east areas very few returns below 1800'...so why make mode C necessary at all?

Operating within the Vancouver Terminal Airspace is problematic most of the time on weekends due to staff shortages brought on by 24 hour flu symptoms. The shortest distance across the straits is between Point Roberts and Active Pass but VR Terminal "experts" tell the little single engine drivers that for safety reasons we have to take the longer route to East Point of Saturna Island.

I trained a few of these "experts" at ZBB when they first started in ATC and their distain for light aircraft operations was voiced many times while working the traffic...and they are now deciding the fate of the little guys today. Remember that it was not that long ago that one of these guys said to me "Hey fella, reduce the number of aircraft in the circuit, cause you're making us look bad!"
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

According to NAV CANADA, the new YVR VNC and VTA charts reflecting all the airspace changes will be available end June. I would think it is very unlikely any new proposed changes are going to be considered. This is a done deal and any further "consultations" are IMHO just for show. That been said it does not appear to be all bad as the changes do somewhat rationalize the existing confusing patchwork of airspace pie slices and their different floors. The real issue as ODF pointed out is whether NAV CANADA is willing to adequately staff YVR so that VFR services can be provided.
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MichaelP
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by MichaelP »

As I look at the way the Lower Mainland is developing both on the ground and in the air this is becoming a less human place and perhaps it is developing into one of the Worse Places On Earth.

I have just reviewed the ATC empire growth and I wonder, with better aircraft equipped with far better navigational equipment why all of this is necessary.
I was there when they reduced the size of the London Heathrow Control zone!
Now I look at the opposite happening here.

While more and more foreign training is happening, there is less and less space for such training to occur.
The residents who have flown for years and enjoyed this area for its natural beauty are the people who will lose most. They knew what it was like.

I said to someone the other week that the Lower Mainland is not a place to retire in... The Okanagan perhaps, Qualicum perhaps, but not here.
This is an indication of what is happening here where more and more houses are being built, the roads are choc a bloc, the airspace is being compressed, people must travel, and airports must cope; recreation must go.
This is becoming a land of work, in congested misery... A two by four and chipboard cancer is growing eastwards.
Perhaps Vancouver will become Hongcouver and like Hong Kong flying little aeroplanes will become almost impossible.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by E-Flyer »

I'm totally looking forward to not being employed during the 2 weeks of the olympics.

Apparently all airports within 30nm radius of YVR are getting shut down?
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by MichaelP »

I'm totally looking forward to not being employed during the 2 weeks of the olympics.
Apparently all airports within 30nm radius of YVR are getting shut down?
Two months you mean... 29th January to 24th March 2010.

Not shut down but with restrictions.

Boundary Bay:
No solo PPL student training.
Two people per training aircraft, must taxy to the terminal and be inspected by three officers there, checking crew and aircraft. They reckon they can do 30 aircraft an hour, I said "you are crazy!" at a meeting.
Land away aircraft must land at Langley or Pitt Meadows for inspection prior to returning to Boundary Bay.

I don't plan to be here at all during the Olympics, and I have to consider where I go when I consider the airspace changes... With, I heard, another 120 students coming to CZBB from abroad, and with Abbotsford school's training area removed it's going to be a more serious problem for us. The mid air collision risk will rise hugely and perhaps this is not the place to be anymore.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by E-Flyer »

Mike, want to take a ride on a speed bird and you can show me Great Britain ?
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MichaelP
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by MichaelP »

GB in the winter :shock: NBW!
I want to spend time in sunnier climes, how about Hua Hin, or Pran Buri?
Image

And of course there's some flying to be done from Pattaya Eastern with no ATC except U-Tapao down the road.
Image
I've flown in many countries in this world. I admit I have never flown in the LA area itself.
No-where have I flown where there's been as much complication, as many frequency changes, as much ATC empire building as there is here in the Vancouver area.
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xsbank
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by xsbank »

Sad but true, Michael, Vancouver has been bought by the developers and the old West Coast ambiance is a thing of the past. Expo and now the Olympics, the big sell-out. Bumper to bumper cars from Horseshoe Bay to Hope and smog. I grew up there. :cry: This is supposed to be the best Canada has to offer. Sh*t on a shingle.

Only thing is, Montreal is worse, but then I never had high expectations for here so I haven't been disappointed. At least the beer is cheap here - makes up for the corruption.

Why is it Canadians are hell-bent for mediocrity? Go to some little country like Switzerland or Italy and the quality of life and the quality of the surroundings is paramount. Here, slap up another strip-mall and put in another Crappy Tire. Or Tim Horton's. Or Walmart.

Now we are 50 billion in deficit and the riff-raff is shouting about fiscal irresponsibility. Only this last Christmas time and the government was about to fall because they weren't spending enough. 8 billion to GM and they are going T.U. anyway. Good investment, that.

If Canada is the best we can do after thousands of years of 'civilization' then there really is no hope. Hand me that chainsaw.

Rant Switch...................OFF
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by X Driver »

I use to go to all the Nav Can user meetings for the YVR YYJ user areas, during the 80's and 90's, and I believe what ODF says is true. It didn't mater what ideas were put forth the minds were already made up. And as said if there going to grab all the airspace at least they could have enough controlers to operate it all the time.

After years of operating in the lower mainland, I have to admit things are way more layed back out here in big sky country, hell I can even operate out of my local airport with no radio or transponder. Puts a lot of fun back in flying.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by E-Flyer »

MichaelP wrote:GB in the winter :shock: NBW!
I want to spend time in sunnier climes, how about Hua Hin, or Pran Buri?
Image

And of course there's some flying to be done from Pattaya Eastern with no ATC except U-Tapao down the road.
Image
I've flown in many countries in this world. I admit I have never flown in the LA area itself.
No-where have I flown where there's been as much complication, as many frequency changes, as much ATC empire building as there is here in the Vancouver area.

Sure, do they fly 747's to those destinations? It has been a while since I've been on one.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by MichaelP »

747's are not known for their short field abilities so not into Pattaya-Eastern, and the beach is soft sand often covered by gorgeous Thai girls and as such is also unsuitable for heavy wide bodies.

On the subject, we discussed this a bit more and the main concern is the increased risk of mid air collisions.
I would not want to be an instructor in a Cessna with poor visibility in the concentrated Glen Valley after these changes take place, it's bad enough as it is.
Many more Cessna 152s are coming to cope with the increase in foreign students coming here... I think it is going to become very dangerous to train people over the Lower Mainland.
What we need is suggestions of how we are going to cope with it.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by Geko »

Should move an FTU out of the Lower Mainland and setup shop somewhere on the island. Makes me wonder if Discovery West Aviation in Campbell River is ready to expand. 8)
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by MichaelP »

Just finished having a cup of tea with Cat!

He suggests Nanaimo... I looked at this before.
What would be good is if the foreign students were trained there at a satellite base rather than contributing to the traffic here.
It would be better for them, perhaps a little cheaper too, though the flight service station officers might be a little frazzled at the end of the day.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by E-Flyer »

MichaelP wrote:747's are not known for their short field abilities so not into Pattaya-Eastern, and the beach is soft sand often covered by gorgeous Thai girls and as such is also unsuitable for heavy wide bodies.

On the subject, we discussed this a bit more and the main concern is the increased risk of mid air collisions.
I would not want to be an instructor in a Cessna with poor visibility in the concentrated Glen Valley after these changes take place, it's bad enough as it is.
Many more Cessna 152s are coming to cope with the increase in foreign students coming here... I think it is going to become very dangerous to train people over the Lower Mainland.
What we need is suggestions of how we are going to cope with it.

I had a discussion with another fellow instructor about this.

Why is it that TCAS systems are only oriented and required on larger aircraft. Of course, it increases safety. But will ATC not provide traffic separation? I thought that was one of the largest differences between IFR and VFR.

Aside from the 705/704 operations, I believe aircraft operating VFR should have TCAS or a similar system because ATC will NOT provide traffic separation. It improves situational awareness and increases safety. As a result, you'd minimize the number of "close calls" you experience in glenn valley. Because during the olympic time, as you said, the close calls can easily be converted into statistics.

What is your opinion on it Mike? I know that your Diamond which i had a pleasure of flying had the TCAS on it... which made me feel much safer.

I think that instead of enforcing the requirements you stated earlier, they should enforce the need for a TCAS or similar system.

There was something advertised on the wings across canada episode... PCAS ?

Image


It could be a cheaper option than installing a TCAS system.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by Old Dog Flying »

A couple of the guys at Langley have that little CAS system but they turn it off in the Glen Valley/Langley area because of far too much heads-down looking at the warnings.

I was out in the Glenn Valley area today and it was crazy out there with chatter that was anything but understandable English. I could not even make out the friggin' ident of a couple of these clowns and they are supposed to be able to speak English before they start flying training....BS.

I'm very much afraid that Nav Can in its wisdow, is going to create a nightmare with the new airspace changes.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by fl80 »

they should enforce the need for a TCAS or similar system.
Personally, I'd rather rely on my own ability to see and avoid than be forced to add another piece of technology that takes may take my attention away from what I think I'm supposed to be doing, that is flying the airplane.
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MichaelP
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by MichaelP »

The traffic systems while interesting in low volume traffic situations is in fact a nuisance in high traffic situations.

The unit shown above is passive and requires a radar somewhere to trigger the other aircraft's transponder.

The SportStar, having correctly overflown Rowena's to check the place out prior to landing there, was faced with a Cherokee on a straight in approach, downwind finals in the opposite direction, that had not assessed the field.
The pilot of the SportStar had the plug in traffic system and the Cherokee didn't show up.
But the Cherokee didn't have the transponder turned on, and if it did it was probably in a radar blind spot in any case.
The new pilot in the Cherokee later did another mountain [check] flight with a different instructor.

The DA40 has an active system that will interrogate transponders directly.
All these people who have their transponders turned on on the ground before takeoff clearance cause the system to warn "Traffic traffic....". They should put mute buttons on both sides of the panel.
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Last edited by MichaelP on Fri May 29, 2009 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by E-Flyer »

Old Dog Flying wrote:A couple of the guys at Langley have that little CAS system but they turn it off in the Glen Valley/Langley area because of far too much heads-down looking at the warnings.

I was out in the Glenn Valley area today and it was crazy out there with chatter that was anything but understandable English. I could not even make out the friggin' ident of a couple of these clowns and they are supposed to be able to speak English before they start flying training....BS.

I'm very much afraid that Nav Can in its wisdow, is going to create a nightmare with the new airspace changes.
Agreed, I was flying on Monday and some idiots were "socializing" on the frequency while I can swear about 8-10 airplanes were constantly trying to get their radio calls in. So stupid. Not that one can really rely on the position reports, but the extra chit chatter non sense by those 3 gentlemen really made the flying unpleasant. Trying to explain something to a student only to have to hear those idiots in the back ground. Gahh :roll:
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Aug
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by Aug »

E-Flyer wrote: Agreed, I was flying on Monday and some idiots were "socializing" on the frequency while I can swear about 8-10 airplanes were constantly trying to get their radio calls in. So stupid. Not that one can really rely on the position reports, but the extra chit chatter non sense by those 3 gentlemen really made the flying unpleasant. Trying to explain something to a student only to have to hear those idiots in the back ground. Gahh :roll:
Actually, I know several instructors/ pilots/ students who don't even bother radioing positions in Glenn Valley anymore due to the frequency congestion... it's more confusing than anything...

Also, speaking of radio, I notice that from time to time, Langley Tower has closed in the day due to 'staff shortages' and thus it reverts to an MF airport in the middle of the day with traffice all around... I blame Nav Canada for not keeping it sufficiently staffed, and giving them more responsibilities to boot (like changing the control zone to class C)...

Flying around the valley is gonna be more of a challenge...
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by Old Dog Flying »

Staff shortages are nothing new but last weekend..31 May...Pitt Meadows, Langley and Vancouver Terminal were all conveniently restricting VFR traffic. Langley is short of staff but .........

And it is only going to get worse and Nav Can wants more control of the airspace but are unable to provide the services as they have it now. At one of our so-called consultation meetings Henderson was advocating those mickey mouse pcas things but I doubt that he has a clue about what the results will be...heads down...too many targets...and a shower of rivets.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by randallg »

Old Dog Flying wrote:Staff shortages are nothing new but last weekend..31 May...Pitt Meadows, Langley and Vancouver Terminal were all conveniently restricting VFR traffic.
This has been happening for years and seems to be getting worse. This was one major reason I got my IFR rating.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by 2R »

They have had staff shortages in that airspace for years ,get used to it .If they have not hired any more staff by now they will never hire anyone else or staff it untill a major accident occurs .

Just fly low everywhere and enjoy the ride :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by randallg »

I like the changes to ZBB control zone but this is weird. The height goes from 1500 to 2500, but ZBB tower is only responsible to 2000, and Terminal above that. What's the point? Why not just extend the CZ to 2000?

Do you think they'll increase circuit height to 1000? Maybe they'll keep it at 800 for noise abatement.
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Re: Vancouver Airspace Changes coming in July

Post by Old Dog Flying »

With the extension to Rnwy 25, there is no reason to keep the circuit at 800' but the residents of Dogpatch might start complaining if they thought that their airspace was being infiltrated by aircraft.
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