George Galloway banned from Canada by Harper Gov.

[NWONT]

"full historical rights to all the holy land and a deed to prove it". Nobody has historical rights to anything. " holy land " There's not a thing holy about that area of the world. Eventually one side or the other with drop a cracker that will end this unsolvable dilema. Do us a favor and post a copy of that deed. Who made it up? One of you imaginary, invisible Gods? What a laugh. One day there will be a mushroom cloud over there and that will settle the whole damn thing.

[SenyorJim]

Ignorance can justify anything but it doesn't have to stay that way about the Holy Land which is where the Messiah appeared.
Check out the Book of Genesis specifically 12:3 and Abraham , the father of the faithfull who received a promise from the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob the father of the 12 tribes of Israel, that all the land over there with boundaries mentioned to Moses is given to the Jews and the faithfull who claim that promise through Christ.
You have heard mention of it no doubt but , for your convenience here it is and there are hard copies available- and incidentally this covenant cannot be revoked
12 : 1
Now the LORD had said to Abram, Depart from thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, to a land that I will show thee:

12 : 2
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

12 : 3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

12 : 4
So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken to him, and Lot went with him: and Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed from Haran.

12 : 5
And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went to go forth into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

12 : 6
And Abram passed through the land to the place of Sichem, to the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite [was] then in the land.

12 : 7
And the LORD appeared to Abram, and said, To thy seed will I give this land: and there he erected an altar to the LORD, who appeared to him.
Take a boo at this site for details
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm

that should get you started if you dont wimp out
God is still looking for people of faith who seek Him but the fool in his heart says 'there is no God'
sj

[sky's the limit]

'there is no God'
sj

Hey look, you've come to your senses....

stl

[SenyorJim]

cant handle it eh

[NWONT]

You call that bunch of drivel a deed. Every superstitious group has a " holy book " that says their imaginary, invisible god tells them they are the chosen people and the world belongs to them. Thats what these neverending wars are all about. Like I said before one day it'll be the holy land alright. Just one huge hole or crater with a mushroom cloud over it. Its always been impossible to discuss anything with people whos mind is contolled by invisible beings. There used to be many mental facilities to house these people in buy due to lack of funding many were closed. Senyor Jim, you snuck onto this site claiming to be just another redneck, but I think you're just another Hebrew ***Edited*** looking for a platform to spew your religious claptrap from.

Come on guys, you all know better. I removed the following posts from this thread, use some sense when posting potentially offensive language... Disagree all you like, just loose the slurs. stl

[SenyorJim]

ha ha
You should fold your stupid cards NWONT , and take a good look at your juvenile reaction with the same old hack kneed kick below-suck above clap trap
Your handle is quite apt and fits your bigoted attitud :
'my minds made up - dont bother me with the truth!'
You dont want a forum- you just want a dinosaur soapbox with no real feedback to disturb your sand box-sad.
Which does serve to disprove the Darwin theory though

ps
I didn't sneak in here - truth has its advocates everywhere.
Try swimming -there is more to life than laying on the bottom upside down

You call that bunch of drivel a deed. Every superstitious group has a " holy book " that says their imaginary, invisible god tells them they are the chosen people and the world belongs to them. Thats what these neverending wars are all about. Like I said before one day it'll be the holy land alright. Just one huge hole or crater with a mushroom cloud over it. Its always been impossible to discuss anything with people whos mind is contolled by invisible beings. There used to be many mental facilities to house these people in buy due to lack of funding many were closed. Senyor Jim, you snuck onto this site claiming to be just another redneck, but I think you're just another Hebrew ***Edited*** looking for a platform to spew your religious claptrap from.

Come on guys, you all know better. I removed the following posts from this thread, use some sense when posting potentially offensive language... Disagree all you like, just loose the slurs. stl

[NWONT]

I will not debate with someone possessed by demons. This discussion is over!!!!!

[SenyorJim]

it never got started thanks to you

see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjNhHDTlUi8
on the digital basis of this 'reality' and the 10 dimensions we are generally ignorant of called quantum physics

I will not debate with someone possessed by demons. This discussion is over!!!!!

[Dex]

The UN is a joke- and using them as a moral yardstick is hilarious.
Israel has full historical rights to ALL of the holy land and a deed to prove it - the poor oppressed Palestinian terrorists are a rabble left over from persian, babylonian ,egyptian, greek, roman,ottoman, arab and british days- and they are very adept at promoting the same old lies to dupe the naive world.

http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
sj

Well, if the situation in Israel and the occupied territories is "God's plan", then I would suggest to anyone of faith to reconsider. Any entity/person that endorses the misery, suffering, and terror of innocent peoples from both sides of this conflict is certainly not worthy of my respect. Of course this transcends............

[SenyorJim]

You should read your book Dex- Genesis and Deuteronomy where all that area is deeded to the Jews.
And who is endorsing atacks other than the Islamic fundamentalists? The Israelis are protecting themselves from on going attacks since they returned to their ancient land in May '48. The conflict is the result of the arab Ishmael's [ the illegitimate son of Abraham] dispute of the Abrahamic promise of the Holy Land to Israel , the father of the twelve Jewish tribes which the Bible makes quite clear to the faithfull.
It is a Palestinian lie that Israel is occupying land other than her own ancient God given land from 3500 years ago and obvious to any serious investigation of the faithfull who trust what is written in the Book of Genesis and throughout the old and new testament .
Palestine is a name the Romans coined from the ancient philistine in order to de -legitimatize Israels claim to the Land . There is no such thing as the west bank coined by the british and french when they divvied up the Holy land in the '20s and gave much of Israel's land to their arab' friends' - it is Judea Samaria.
Yrs
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm

The UN is a joke- and using them as a moral yardstick is hilarious.
Israel has full historical rights to ALL of the holy land and a deed to prove it - the poor oppressed Palestinian terrorists are a rabble left over from persian, babylonian ,egyptian, greek, roman,ottoman, arab and british days- and they are very adept at promoting the same old lies to dupe the naive world.

http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm
sj

Well, if the situation in Israel and the occupied territories is "God's plan", then I would suggest to anyone of faith to reconsider. Any entity/person that endorses the misery, suffering, and terror of innocent peoples from both sides of this conflict is certainly not worthy of my respect. Of course this transcends............

[Dex]

You should read your book Dex- Genesis and Deuteronomy where all that area is deeded to the Jews.
And who is endorsing atacks other than the Islamic fundamentalists? The Israelis are protecting themselves from on going attacks since they returned to their ancient land in May '48. The conflict is the result of the arab Ishmael's [ the illegitimate son of Abraham] dispute of the Abrahamic promise of the Holy Land to Israel , the father of the twelve Jewish tribes which the Bible makes quite clear to the faithfull.
It is a Palestinian lie that Israel is occupying land other than her own ancient God given land from 3500 years ago and obvious to any serious investigation of the faithfull who trust what is written in the Book of Genesis and throughout the old and new testament .
Palestine is a name the Romans coined from the ancient philistine in order to de -legitimatize Israels claim to the Land . There is no such thing as the west bank coined by the british and french when they divvied up the Holy land in the '20s and gave much of Israel's land to their arab' friends' - it is Judea Samaria.
Yrs
http://www.biblicalzionist.com/index.htm

Oh great!!! Another radical zionist which quotes the Old Testament. I guess you follow these to the book?


Exodus 31:15
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Corinthians 11:14 *
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

Deuteronomy 22:5 *
5. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Ephesians 5:22 - 25*
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.


Timothy 2:9 - 15*
9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Romans 7:2
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.


Titus 2:3 - 5*
3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

[Dex]

................
And who is endorsing atacks other than the Islamic fundamentalists?

.....................

The Israeli government

[SenyorJim]

you guys excel in presumptuous ignorance
go back to sleep

[BoostedNihilist]

you guys excel in presumptuous ignorance
go back to sleep

What? You are joking right? I hope..

Israelis, and palestinians, you guys are all dirtbags, you guys are the problem with the world and neither of you deserve any respect as neither of you are interested in a solution. You both cling to your selfish perspectives and would rather kill each other than come up with a somewhat pragmatic solution. At this point in time, I don't care who owned the land 3000 years ago. If the real world worked like that I could just walk back to my ancestors farmland and annex it. You're talking about romans de-legitimizing the jews claim to israel? What was that, like 2000 years ago? Give me a break... That has got to be the stupidest argument I have ever heard regarding this stupid fiasco. Join us in the post dark ages world. Jim, your argument leaves which option open to the palestinians? Blind submission? Yeah, sure, try that on the jews and see what happens. The cry of the bleeding hearts will be heard the world over as if trumpeted at the top of sinai by moses himself. See the problem here is neither of you factions see any part of the issue from the others perspective. You are so self assured by your various manipulative interests that you fight a fight which you do not own. Both sides deny any responsibility for the deterioration of the region and whine when you don't get exactly what you want.

Looking at it from the outside, and being not beholden to any religious ideology it is pretty plain to see what is going on here. Perhaps if you pulled your head out of the book for a second and actually looked at what was going on you would come to the conclusion that you guys are all living the life of sin. Claiming the moral high ground and then opressing a society, or commiting terrorist acts is the height of hypocrisy and is a much more serious charge than a lame 'presumptive ignorance' claim. I mean, yes, I might not KNOW what some ancient text says about what belongs to who, but I know driving a civilization into the sea is wrong just as I know shooting missiles blindly into a city is wrong.

At the end of the day what I see is this. I see one society, with a vastly superior military and infrastructure pushing an essentially indigenous population into the sea. I see a marginalized population striking back with whatever means they have, and as disgusting as I find that I find more disgusting the fact that when anyone speaks up against the great beast of zion they are labelled an anti-semite racist. To me, racism is pushing a marginalized society to the brink and manipulating peoples perspective so they can't help but agree. This seems all to familiar if you look at how the nazis manipulated their population into committing genocide. Doing this by using some skewed moral standard and feared into agreeing lest you become a bigot. It is sick and it has no place in a civilized world.

Israelis have to grow up. If you want a regular non indoctrinated guy like me to buy the fact that you are morally superior then prove it and give the palestinians a state. End the defacto apartheid. Then, with a palestinian state established, if they lob a rocket into your territory go to town, build a wall and fill it with water for all I care, but in order for me to see your struggle as legitimate, it actually has to appear to have legitimacy.

I do not hate jewish people, I do not hate anyone really. I have been to the region and what stood out to me was the fact that in a sea of brown there is a state of pasty white people... I think I remember this song from sesame street.. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things does not belong...

And in closing.. If israel did no exist, we would not be having these issues in the first place. Being that I have no respect for either of your little cliques either of you could drop off the world and it would have no impact on me. I doubt the price of tea in china would change either.

[niss]

.

Israelis, and palestinians, you guys are all dirtbags

I don't think I am a dirtbag.

[BoostedNihilist]

Niss, what would you do to solve the conflict in a fair way?

[JakeYYZ]

Palestine was carved up from the old Syrian and Jordian province under the Ottoman Empire after WW I and occupied by the British until after 1948. There never was an actual country of Palestine and there is no Palestinian ethnicity.
Case in point: Palestine. ROMAN name for the territory they conquered and changed the name of. Judea, Samaria and Israel. They changed the names of a lot of places they conquered. Palestine is not an arabic word, it is a latin word.

The land was ISRAEL, never Palestine until the Roman invasion and occupation, after which the Romans made it one of their missions in life to remove a lot of Jews from the Holy Land. Aramaic speaking Bedouins and other tribes moved in, filling the void and claiming lands they had no rights to, never had and never will. No more than Rome would have the right to claim say, Jerusalem today based on the fact that they occupied in 2000 years ago. They were thieves, and so were the opportunistic Bedouins, Arab tribesmen and others who flooded in, with the blessings of Rome, which just wanted people to pay taxes and support the Empire.

So, the "Palestinian" does not exist: he is a made up personage, cut whole cloth "from a garment of lies and filth. Yassir Arafat wasn't a "Palestinian": he was born in Egypt. Abbas was born elsewhere. The majority of current day "Palestinians" are in fact Jordanian or Syrian by nationality. Anyone who wants to claim the nationality "Palestinian" can do so. Where does one go to verify this? Who lays claim to the genetic markers for this identity? Me? I'm French Canadian and Euro-Trash Mutt® but as of now I am "Palestinian". Care to dispute that? How? There is no clearing house for establishing this national identity so you can't even find an accurate list of who claims to be a Palestinian. Accurate, there meaning to within the nearest 6.54 billion human beings. That's an astounding 0% accuracy mark. Just astounding.

So, as a Palestinian, as of right now, I say STFU and STFD.
Why not ask Turkey to return Cyprus, England to return Gibraltar, England to return the Maldives or America to return Hawaii. You'll be met with derisive laughter. That laughter should be the exact response to any further proposals for a Palestinian state. Countries have regularly drawn and redrawn their borders and expelled foreign populations. In fact Kuwait and Iraq expelled their own Palestinians after the two Iraqi wars. Israel should be no different. There is no multilateral or unilateral solution that will bring peace. Only removing the hostile population can do that. There is your solution. If Israel is to survive, a Palestinian state cannot exist within or near its borders. Nor can there be any sizable numbers of Arabs within Israel driven by a hostile intent towards the country. Israel has been fiddling with the bandage for decades and the pain has been tremendous and the damage to the nation, economically, diplomatically, militarily and in every other sense has far outweighed what removing it in one moment would have cost.
Any military or defensive act by Israel is typically condemned by the world. Not because Israel is an aggressor, but because there are 21 Arab countries and only one tiny Israel in the middle east sitting on a few thousand square miles of land. Because there are one billion Muslims in the world who all agree that Israel must go and the world thinks the destruction of Israel is a small price to pay for appeasing them. So, as a Palestinian, as of right now, I say STFU and STFD. Enough is enough.

[niss]

Niss, what would you do to solve the conflict in a fair way?

If I were the king of Israel?

I would immediately freeze settlement building, I would unilaterally declare a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank on 1967 Borders minus the large settlments like Ma'ale Adumim, these would eventually be given back to the new Palestinian state but after 5 year period of calm, and all other current settlements would be evacuated.

The seige on Gaza would end but they would have no rights to enter Israel without passports, etc as at this point they would be a completely separate country.

Same for the West Bank, with exception to East Jerusalem residents. East Jerusalem would remain united with West in exchange for a highway connecting Gaza to the West Bank on Israeli territory.

I would stick with the current Israeli stance on Right of Return, ~100,000 for the purpose of family reunification, the Palestinians will not be allowed to have their cake and eat it too, if they want their own state that is where they will live.

They will receive financial and security aid to establish the country and after that they are separate. Any attacks originating from Palestine will be treated in the way Hizbollah was treated in Lebanon.

My problem is in the past that the Palestinians were not willing to 'negotiate', there were no counter offers, it was either from mediteranian to jordan river, or all of the WB & Gaza & Jerusalem & The right of return. There were no serious negotiations.

In my plan or at least my own perspective of this issue, there is no obligation to the Palestinians for the territory. I recall that this territory was conquered from Egypt & Jordan, for what ever reason politics dictated that this was Palestinian, so moving forward that is the approach I would take, but that said someone has to make a decision and all this would be done unilaterally, the Palestinians would have their own state, and to get the rest of it (larger settlements, highway uniting Gaza & WB) they would have to prove to be a viable partner.

Unfortunately there are no serious partners at the moment on both sides. Bibi & Lieberman don't seem like the type to really move this forward, and no one on the PA side is seriously willing to actually negotiate, the Palestinian position has always been, all of it, and that is it.

I am rooting for the Palestinians too (sort of), I believe that you can be Pro-Palestinian and Pro-Israeli. I want to see a Palestinian state with peaceful neighbours.

One question to some here though......If you believe that even though Gaza and WB was captured from Egypt and Jordan, it belongs to the Palestinians, then why does the Golan Heights not also belong to the PA?

[BoostedNihilist]

Niss, well thought out. I agree. Very undirtbagish of you. I know that there are many people in israel who would agree with you. They are not dirtbags, not every israeli is a dirtbag just as every palestinian is not a terrorist. The key is taking your moderate approach and somehow getting the masses to form a vocal majority. At least you are open to a possible solution and I would hope that there is a way to get there one day.

[niss]

Another thing I would like people here to address is what are their takes on previous Jewish towns before even the state of Israel.

Kfar Darom in the Gaza strip was purchased by the JNF before the partition plan. Hebron had a large Jewish presence before the current state of Israel existed.

There are Settlments all over the WB (and there were in Gaza) that were all built upon towns built and inhabited by Jews before Israel but were either kicked out or moved due to violence like the Hebron massacre.

So do Israelis in your eyes have any ties to these areas and are the ones who resettled after '67 'Occupiers'?

[Dex]

Certainly a complicated situation. I think if someone were kicked off their land, through coercion, violence, etc., then they certainly have some right of return. Although, for example, if there were Jewish residents/settlements in Gaza/WB prior to Israel's creation then they certainly have a right of return but would under the new State's jurisdiction.

Spelling Edit

[niss]

Certainly a complicated situation. I think if someone were kicked off their land, through coercion, violence, etc., then they certainly have some right of return. Although, for example, if there were Jewish residents/settlements in Gaza/WB prior to Israel's creation then they certainly have a right of return but would under the new State's jurisdiction.

Spelling Edit

Given that WB/G are currently under Israels jurisdiction, then do these people returning to previously Jewish settlements count as settlers/occupiers/etc?

Note I am not talking about WB/G as a whole, but specifically towns and cities that had a large Jewish presence prior to the creation of Israel?

[Dex]

Given that WB/G are currently under Israels jurisdiction, then do these people returning to previously Jewish settlements count as settlers/occupiers/etc?

Note I am not talking about WB/G as a whole, but specifically towns and cities that had a large Jewish presence prior to the creation of Israel?

Yes. They are Israeli citizens. Once a Palestinian state has been created the matter would fall to the Palestinian government. In the same way the Israeli government is facing the issue of Right of Return.