Air France 447 Reported Missing

[Rockie]

This bomb thing seems to be getting a little attention so I thought I would mention a few points about that from numerous briefings over the years from corporate security.

1. Airlines get hundreds and hundreds of bomb threats against them every single year. They treat each one seriously and convene a threat assessment team to evaluate every one of them. The vast majority are general in nature but a few are specific.

2. Worldwide there has never been a single case where a recieved bomb threat resulted in the discovery of an actual bomb. Not one.

3. There was no readily identifiable group on the plane that might be targetted like there was with Air India, except that it was a western airplane.

4. No one has claimed responsibility for it which would normally happen if it were an extremist group.

[sylevine]

ACARS is a slow and obsolete system. The communication can't support the transmission of the data sent to the flight data recorder.
The flight data recorder is used, if recovered, to run an aircraft simulator to find out what went wrong. ACARS only transmits a small quantity of data. ACARS bandwidth is l/100 the band width of modern military satellite global communication systems and thus it is, and has been, obsolete for a good number of years. These communciation system, not ACARS, are secure and utilized daily by submarines, AWACS planes, etc.

We got the astronaughts back from the moon by the transmission of its flight data. The people on the ground found the problem not the astronaughts. Once they found the problem they worked on it and came up with a method to bring the astronaughts back to earth safely. A system like that should be available for cargo and carrier aricraft but it isn't because the aviation industry is affraid of liability.
They fought against even having flight recorders. This madness has to stop for good of the travelling public and national security.

When a plane decompresses like Helios did in 2005 then with the aid of the flight data we could remotely fly to a safe landing and not let over 100 people go to a horrible death. On 9/11 when hijacked planes deviated from their flight plans and the pilots won't fly them along their approved flight plan we presently can fly them to a safe landing remotely. This technology is available now but only military use it. When GPS was available only the military used it. The FAA and others fought is introduction into commercial airlines because they had a system called OMEGA that was in service but was terrible. GPS has to be sold to the government only as a bombing system since the airline association said they wouldn't use it. Thank G-d there were some good people in the Air Force. 9/11 was preventable and a good number of the fatal crashes are also preventable if the flight data was availabe in real-time and not restricted to an autopsy mode.

We need the proactive use of the flight data to prevent a good many of the fatal crashes and to get to a crash site in the shortest possible time to maybe save people.

Hopefully we will be able to recover Air France's flight recorders in a working condition and use that data to prevent another tragic crash.
If not we have what everyone in the airline calls recurring accidents until we can recover the recorder.

If you go to http://safelander.com you can get a better idea of how we can make the skies safer, increase security and reduce the cost of flying.

Sy Levine

[Doc]

2. Worldwide there has never been a single case where a recieved bomb threat resulted in the discovery of an actual bomb. Not one.

This is because when they really want to bomb the aircraft, they don't threaten. They bomb.

Same mentality with passports and photo ID.......the bad guys ALWAYS have the best ID money can buy! You're safer letting the guys with NO ID on the aircraft!

[canwhitewolf]

I cant rememer which program it was but there was a study done and research on carbon fibre composite in planes and lightning stikes and the disintegration of the parts of the plane as a result of it, in fact I believe there were crashes of unknown cause until they figured it out

IF this happened in an area of extreme lightning and turbulence, this could possibly be a reason for all this

I cant find the information on this though

[canwhitewolf]

would that not constitute in anyones mind that there could be a great problem?

for a person at a desk seeing the acars on this would that not create an instant wondering

By all indications, it did raise an alarm. Why do some assume that it didn't?

The system acted as fast as it could considering aircraft positioning in a remote area and the potential for false error reporting and communication problems.

And even if it did, it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

***************************************************************


raised an alarm when?

was it when they received that acars info fromthe plane or was it when the aircraft was overdue

would be nice to see the exact info from the acars

but i agree it probably wouldn't have made a difference in this case

[costermonger]

Sorry if it's already been covered, but is there a technical reason why GPS tracking systems can't be used on transoceanic flights?

[Fox 3]

ACARS is a slow and obsolete system. The communication can't support the transmission of the data sent to the flight data recorder.
The flight data recorder is used, if recovered, to run an aircraft simulator to find out what went wrong. ACARS only transmits a small quantity of data. ACARS bandwidth is l/100 the band width of modern military satellite global communication systems and thus it is, and has been, obsolete for a good number of years. These communciation system, not ACARS, are secure and utilized daily by submarines, AWACS planes, etc.

We got the astronaughts back from the moon by the transmission of its flight data. The people on the ground found the problem not the astronaughts. Once they found the problem they worked on it and came up with a method to bring the astronaughts back to earth safely. A system like that should be available for cargo and carrier aricraft but it isn't because the aviation industry is affraid of liability.
They fought against even having flight recorders. This madness has to stop for good of the travelling public and national security.

When a plane decompresses like Helios did in 2005 then with the aid of the flight data we could remotely fly to a safe landing and not let over 100 people go to a horrible death. On 9/11 when hijacked planes deviated from their flight plans and the pilots won't fly them along their approved flight plan we presently can fly them to a safe landing remotely. This technology is available now but only military use it. When GPS was available only the military used it. The FAA and others fought is introduction into commercial airlines because they had a system called OMEGA that was in service but was terrible. GPS has to be sold to the government only as a bombing system since the airline association said they wouldn't use it. Thank G-d there were some good people in the Air Force. 9/11 was preventable and a good number of the fatal crashes are also preventable if the flight data was availabe in real-time and not restricted to an autopsy mode.

We need the proactive use of the flight data to prevent a good many of the fatal crashes and to get to a crash site in the shortest possible time to maybe save people.

Hopefully we will be able to recover Air France's flight recorders in a working condition and use that data to prevent another tragic crash.
If not we have what everyone in the airline calls recurring accidents until we can recover the recorder.

If you go to http://safelander.com you can get a better idea of how we can make the skies safer, increase security and reduce the cost of flying.

Sy Levine

What a fantastic and very interesting, informative post. Thank you for that!

~FOX~

[boeingboy]

And, I disagree that FDRs/CVRs do not directly affect safety. They can provide valuable information with respect to cause and contributing factors - most importantly in cases where the wreckage leaves little to be examined. What you can learn from them may prevent future similar accidents - thereby directly affecting safety.

Absolutly 100% correct. Which is why I said

They don't directly affect saftey - with regaurds to the immediate situation.

ie - they would not affect anything on that flight.

[Widow]

So what is your point in refuting my assertion that the sooner they are retrieved the better?

[bmc]

http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/

[YHZChick]

was this aircraft not sending out all kinds of messages through ACARS about electrical problems maybe even electrical failure and even pressurization failure?? maybe even more than that

would that not constitute in anyones mind that there could be a great problem?

for a person at a desk seeing the acars on this would that not create an instant wondering

all that kind of information started coming at one full force and not reacting would indeed be inappropiate, one should try to ascertain immediatly what was going on if possible

the plane is flying in an area of known bad weather and thunderstorm continious activity at night

obviously now it seems a more hurried response would not have solved anything greater but some of the harsh words to others in here who are less knowledgeable about transit in that part of the world and who are only trying to understand it all should be tamed down a bit

be kind..instruct.. dont lecture

Where, just where, have you read that those ACARS didn't get people wondering???
What information do you have that the rest of us don't that could support that a "more hurried response" was even possible?
Have you eve been involved in SAR operations? Have you ever tried to track wreckage in the middle of the Atlantic in severe weather?

perhaps it's best for us not to criticize or jusge AF operations, which would have recieved and monitored the ACARS or the recovery operation.

[YHZChick]

They just said on CNN that the Airbus started breaking up while in flight at 38,000 or 39,000 feet. THey also said (I cant remember whether it was May of this year or last year) that in Argentina (Also in South America) a man threatened to bomb an Air France 777-300 enroute from Buenos Aires to Paris. This is now getting a little strange and I wonder if its possible to connect the two..?

Of course, everything CNN says MUST be true.

Was this from the same guy that talked about the twin engine Cessna 172 landing on the highway?

The bomb threat was reported in the Brazilian media on May 27th. I read about that 2 days ago. But one must keep in mind that since we aren't in Brazil, we can't determine the QUALITY of that information. If you need further proof, read the british press coverage about the Air Canada pilot who was "hauled off the flight deck by police" because he was impaired. The organization reporting that may have no more credibility than Frank magazine for all any of us know.

And considering CNN was reading posts from PPRuNe on the air, where I could be am A320 captain with 500 billion hours if i want to be (as with any internet forum), I would use a critical eye, and the grey matter between your ears in evaluating anything you hear there. That is PARTICULARLY true when it comes to aviation accidents.

[YHZChick]

I really like the idea of floating CVR's and FDR's, and I don't think it would take to much to make them buoyant, the real trick would be to mount them in such a way so as to detach from the airframe effectively. Also another thought, what about making those ACARS messages include one that sends an alert when a certain series of failures indicate eminent (sp?) danger? So if it sees (for example) 4 buses fail, the auto pilot being disengaged, and a rapid depressurization it would send a signal different from the rest that would catch the attention of whoever (or whatever) is monitoring them. Food for thought.

How do you know they didn't? Airlines can customize their ACARS systems. I have no doubt that certain faults are flagged 'urgent' and the same for a certain sequence.(I have a friend who works Maintenance Ops for Jazz, and I've posed this question to him via email. when I hear back from him, I will gladly post the response. He joked "ACARS was the bane of his existence", which leads one to believe they absolutely are monitored real time, junk and all.)

I wondered what a company would do in a situation like this with their other flights? I expect that route is shut down for now, it would be empty even if it did go, but I wonder if other companies are still flying that route.

I know you're not a pilot, and neither an I, but what makes you think they would cease tran-atlantic routes out of GIG because of this accident? Did they stop flying into Buffalo after Colgan? How about cancelling flights out of LGA after Sully hit the geese? Why do you think it would be empty? People still need to get places.

[YHZChick]

would that not constitute in anyones mind that there could be a great problem?

for a person at a desk seeing the acars on this would that not create an instant wondering

By all indications, it did raise an alarm. Why do some assume that it didn't?

The system acted as fast as it could considering aircraft positioning in a remote area and the potential for false error reporting and communication problems.

And even if it did, it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

***************************************************************


raised an alarm when?

was it when they received that acars info fromthe plane or was it when the aircraft was overdue

would be nice to see the exact info from the acars

but i agree it probably wouldn't have made a difference in this case

ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed.

[canwhitewolf]

was this aircraft not sending out all kinds of messages through ACARS about electrical problems maybe even electrical failure and even pressurization failure?? maybe even more than that

would that not constitute in anyones mind that there could be a great problem?

for a person at a desk seeing the acars on this would that not create an instant wondering

all that kind of information started coming at one full force and not reacting would indeed be inappropiate, one should try to ascertain immediatly what was going on if possible

the plane is flying in an area of known bad weather and thunderstorm continious activity at night

obviously now it seems a more hurried response would not have solved anything greater but some of the harsh words to others in here who are less knowledgeable about transit in that part of the world and who are only trying to understand it all should be tamed down a bit

be kind..instruct.. dont lecture

Where, just where, have you read that those ACARS didn't get people wondering???
What information do you have that the rest of us don't that could support that a "more hurried response" was even possible?
Have you eve been involved in SAR operations? Have you ever tried to track wreckage in the middle of the Atlantic in severe weather?

perhaps it's best for us not to criticize or jusge AF operations, which would have recieved and monitored the ACARS or the recovery operation.

******************************************************************

I didnt say that ACARS didn't get people wondering??? i posed a statement i said.."one should try to ascertain immediatly what was going on if possible" do you have evidence that the information received from acars was acted upon immediatly? if you do then please present,

you asked..Have you ever been involved in SAR operations? the answer is yes

this isnt about criticism of AF its about analysis of the problem

[canwhitewolf]

ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed.

[/quote]

******************************************************************

yep 4 minutes to depressurization sure indicates a problem that could be severe in my view

[canwhitewolf]

Air France pilots battled for 15 minutes to save doomed flight AF 447


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... F-447.html

quote
"Suddenly we saw in the distance a strong and intense flash of white light, followed by a downward, vertical trajectory which broke up into six segments," the chief pilot of an Air Comet plane from Lima to Madrid told the Spanish newspaper, El Pais. He has reported his observations to investigators"

[YHZChick]

[quote="canwhitewolf]******************************************************************

I didnt say that ACARS didn't get people wondering??? i posed a statement i said.."one should try to ascertain immediatly what was going on if possible" do you have evidence that the information received from acars was acted upon immediatly? if you do then please present,

you asked..Have you eve been involved in SAR operations? the answer is yes

this isnt about criticism its about analysis[/quote]

Having been involved in SAR operations, I would expect you then to understand the level of planning involved, particularly in this situation where the aircraft went down 4 hours into her flight, at night, in an area of severe wx.

I have no reason to think that it wasn't, and until at least the preliminary investigation is complete at the end of the month, I'll give Air France the benefit of the doubt.

[canwhitewolf]

dltd

[YHZChick]

whats your problem yhz chick? i have no problem with AF so why do you keep ranting on about it

My "problem" is the assumption or suggestions that is prevalent amongst some posters here that "the powers that be" didn't respond correctly to the ACARS, the lack of communications, whatever when there is not a single piece of evidence to support that.

Didn't know where the plane was? They located the wreckage within 24 hours! IN the middle of the Atlantic ocean. Me thinks they had a damn good idea where the plane was.

Didn't respond to ACARS? Sez who??! Unless you're sitting in the Air France MTC, that's a wild assertion to make, and terribly unfair. Obviously at this point no one is going to be able to say what exactly transpired when those ACARS were recieved (hell, but let's assume they did nothing about it anyway).

I only wish that at this point, in the absence of facts, people would not make assumptions, particularly at things (SAR, Air France, Ops, ATC, etc) where people have zero or little information on how they operate.

[Widow]

Settle down YHZChick. People are asking questions, trying to understand. Asking questions doesn't necessitate criticism.

There was a press item (yes, we realize it may be inaccurate - hence asking questions) that said, "It was expected to check in with air traffic controllers at 03:20 a.m. but did not do so. Brazilian authorities asked the air force to launch a search mission just over three hours later."

If the search was being prepared, but not activated, prior to "just over three hours later", then that is one thing. But if SAR was not contacted until "just over three hours later", then the question of why the ACARS would not have triggered earlier activation, is valid.

Even in the second scenario, it doesn't mean anyone did anything wrong - it only brings into question if there is a possible system improvement.

PS. The earlier bomb threat was reported by Argentinian news on May 27th, 2009 (link supplied several times in this thread) ... so unless they backdated the story somehow, it would appear to be true. Not necessarily relevant though.

[MrWings]

As soon as an aircraft is reported missing, SAR flights aren't launched immediately.

Radio calls are made to try and establish contact. Phone calls are made to airports to see if the aircraft is on the ground. Routing, alternative routing and last know position is analyzed to determine a grid to start searching.

So if you're thinking that an aircraft will be in the air on an ACARS report, it won't. That isn't how the system works. And in this case, it worked fine.

If you're thinking the system should be changed and an aircraft should be launched immediately on an ACARS report, well, you would have a lot of unneccesary aircraft in the air at a lot of cost. Would it be worth it to save even one life? Well, you can't put a price on a life but can bet the flying public won't want to see their airfares increased.

If there was a reported MAYDAY at a reported position, then yes, I believe the rescue would be launched immediately.

[Liquid Charlie]

It all goes back to the flight recorders -- without that information there are a lot of gaps that will never be filled.

Interesting we get a post from an internet blogger -- I'm sure the search engines were very busy looking for aviation sites - I think we would be surprised at who is reading our comments.

[Widow]

If you look at the website supplied by said "internet blogger", I think you'll find that he is a little more than a "blogger".

Sy Levine.JPG (83.46 KiB) Viewed 2035 times

[Ogee]

The organization reporting that may have no more credibility than Frank magazine for all any of us know.

Or Stockwell Day, for that matter.