Air France 447 Reported Missing

[c170b53]

This is a response to the individual that wants me to shake my head.
There are numerous forms of composite materials in use, and those materials have only improved and will continue to improve in future designs. When we do have an aircraft with a lightning hit report, its often the aluminum skin structure that has suffered the most damage. As I mentioned early there is a metal layer in all CRP panels that will conduct EMF to the exit points in an aircraft. Your examples presented some compelling media facts but surprisingly, not related or even close to the truth.
Do composite materials pose a danger in aircraft construction?
Yes like any other part of the structure if it is not inspected or the machine is not maintained in accordance with standard practices. CRP is no different than any other component material, abused it will fail just as sure as steel or aluminum will.
But then again your representation suggests you believe that aircraft design is haphazard and that the design of structure has not taken into account the operating environment. An oversight? Well in your case, I think that if you stick to the dotted lines when making the folds your might have some aviation success.

[c170b53]

Well basically as soon as you turn on your Satcom equipped plane you are being tracked until you turn off the power. Did AF 447 have Satcom? Don't know but I'd be surprised if they didn't. Whats the satellite coverage like in this area? Don't know but believe there would be coverage. So there's one problem, coverage, who pays for those services and how do you ensure constant contact.

[Sidebar]

Crash Prompts Call For Black Box Reforms
After Air France Ocean Crash, Call Grows For Flight Recorders That Can Transmit Data
June 4, 2009 | by Nancy Cordes
"People raise the issue of cost. But think of the tens of millions of dollars that are being spent right now mounting this search today in the South Pacific," said Goelz.

It's a search that may prove fruitless. Investigators never found the black boxes from the planes that crashed into the world trade center on 9/11.

Mr. Goelz needs to get his facts straight. Despite the cost, the search for AF447 is nowhere near the South Pacific. Some media outlet actually published this crap without properly proofreading it. Facts from the media? Take 'em with a grain of salt folks!

9/11 WTC black boxes? This is a case of apples and oranges. There were millions of tons of debris at the WTC, crushing people and things beyond belief in the collapse of the buildings. I never expected they'd find those recorders, although I'm sure people looked for them.

I have higher expectations for the AF447 recorders. Underwater search and recovery has been successful before in many situations, and the French are pretty good at underwater ops.

[CAL]

if the aircraft crashes on land do the boxes give off any signal to help pick them up?
Just wondering if we will really ever know if they found the 9-11 black boxes or not...

[flyincanuck]

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... PB20090606

RECIFE, Brazil (Reuters) - Search crews found two male bodies on Saturday morning from the Air France flight that crashed into the Atlantic earlier this week, a Brazilian air force spokesman said.

The first bodies from the crash were found along with debris that came from the doomed flight, spokesman Jorge Amaral told reporters in the northeastern city of Recife.

"This morning at 8:14 a.m., we confirmed the rescue from the water of pieces and bodies that belonged to the Air France flight," Amaral said.

Among the debris retrieved on Saturday was a seat with a serial number that matched the missing flight, a rucksack, and a case with an Air France ticket inside, rescue officials said.

Brazil's air force has been scouring a swathe of the Atlantic about 680 miles northeast of Brazil's coast since Monday's crash, which killed all 228 people on board.

Several Brazilian navy ships have also arrived in the area, but fears have grown that many bodies sank or were devoured by sharks.

It was the world's deadliest air disaster since 2001 and the worst in Air France's 75-year history.

(Reporting by Fernando Exman in Recife; Writing by Stuart Grudgings; editing by Eric Beech)

[Ogee]

The head met guy in France is saying that there is no evidence the aircraft encountered any exceptional weather conditions where it was passing. He says there had been a large CB along the route, but it was already dissapating by the time 447 would have been coming into the area.

And, apparently Airbus had issued some kind of alert or whatever to change the types of pitot tubes installed on this aircraft and that had not yet happened.

[Widow]

Here's a bit of info on that Ogee:

Airspeed instruments on Air France Flight 447 were not replaced as the maker recommended before the plane crashed in turbulent weather, the French agency investigating the disaster said Saturday.

The French accident investigation agency, BEA, found the doomed plane received inconsistent airspeed readings by different instruments as it struggled in a massive thunderstorm on its flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris with 228 people aboard.

No confirmed debris from the aircraft has been found and without its black box recorders, aviation investigators have little information to help them determine what caused the crash.

Airbus had recommended to all its airline customers that they replace speed-measuring instruments known as Pitot tubes on the A330, the model used for Flight 447, said Paul-Louis Arslanian, the head of the agency.

"They hadn't yet been replaced" on the plane that crashed, said Alain Bouillard, head of the French investigation. Air France declined immediate comment.

(Full article here: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... wD98LA4C80

I am very surprised that bodies were found - does anyone know what the water temperature would have been in the area? From what I've been told, often hypothermic shock will cause bodies to sink almost immediately, and if the water temp is very low, it can take quite some time for decomposition to release the gases that could cause them to float again. (Edited to add) Obviously this is in respect of people going into the water alive - my morbid curiousity makes me wonder about how this plays out when that is not the case.

In any case this will provide some closure for the families and friends of those recovered, and allow for a narrowing of the search area.

The main challenge to locating the wreckage will be narrowing down the search area, said local underwater search expert John Perry Fish, the vice president of American Underwater Search and Survey in Cataumet.

In his own work — which has included searches for objects ranging from containers of pollutants to crashed airliners — Fish uses a process called hindcasting.

The process begins with documenting the exact location of debris found floating on the surface, and then using weather and water current information to calculate where it came from.

Such a technique can help establish a starting point for a search in cases such as this, in which there is little information available about the location of the plane at the time of its disappearance.
(Read full article here:http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs. ... /906060325)

Kevin Decock's own version of "hindcasting" is how we managed to locate AQW and then the engine.

[Sidebar]

does anyone know what the water temperature would have been in the area?

No low water temps near the equator. From http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/

the reported sea-surface temperature of 27-28 deg C.

[Widow]

Thanks sidebar, that is much warmer than I expected over such deep waters.

The discoveries took place 450 kilometers (300 miles) northeast of the Fernando de Noronha islands, themselves 370 kilometers from the mainland.

The precise spot was 70 kilometers northeast of the point of last communication with the plane, a series of automatically sent messages signaling multiple shutdowns of onboard systems.

Air France was trying to confirm that the recovered seat came from the flight by checking the serial number, which Amaral gave as 23701103B331-0.

(Full article here: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... LL6xpi9E-g

This does seem very good news in terms of reducing the search area and knowing where to start the search for the flight recorders.

I read somewhere that the seat recovered today is the same one, or in the same debris field, as one spotted early in the search, but that in the hope of finding survivors that debris field was not immediately picked up - but I can't find that article now ... Anyone?

[canwhitewolf]

investigators suspect a terrifying mix of weather and technological weakness was responsible

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 446268.ece

[mabcan]

Last official press release from Air France concerning the Pitot :


"
* Paris, 06 June 2009 - 23:09 local time
Press release N° 12
Update on anemometric sensors

Following the many questions which have appeared in the media on the issue of the Pitot probes in its fleet (the Pitot probe is an instrument which measures the air speed of the aircraft), Air France wishes to make the following clarifications:

1) Malfunctions in the Pitot probes on the A 320 led the manufacturer to issue a recommendation in September 2007 to change the probes. This recommendation also applies to long-haul aircraft using the same probes and on which a very few incidents of a similar nature had occurred.

It should be noted that a recommendation from the manufacturer gives the operator total freedom to apply the corresponding guidelines fully, partially or not at all. Should flight safety be concerned, the manufacturer, together with the authorities, issues a mandatory service bulletin followed by an airworthiness directive (AD).

The recommendation to change the probes was implemented by Air France on its A320 fleet where this type of incident involving water ingress had been observed. It was not implemented on the A340/330s as no such incidents had been noted.

2) Starting in May 2008 Air France experienced incidents involving a loss of airspeed data in flight, in cruise phase on A340s and A330s. These incidents were analysed with Airbus as resulting from pitot probe icing for a few minutes, after which the phenomenon disappeared. Discussions subsequently took place with the manufacturer. Air France asked for a solution which would reduce or eliminate the occurrence of these incidents. In response to these requests, the manufacturer indicated that the probe model recommended for the A320 was not designed to prevent such incidents which took place at cruise levels, and reiterated the operational procedures well-known to the crews.

In the first quarter of 2009 laboratory tests suggested, however, that the new probe could represent a valuable improvement to reduce the incidence of high altitude airspeed discrepancy resulting from pitot probe icing, and an in service evaluation in real flight conditions was proposed by Airbus. Without waiting for the in service evaluation, Air France decided to replace all its probes and the programme was launched on 27 April 2009.

Without making any assumptions as to a possible link with the causes of the accident, Air France speeded up this programme and reminded its pilots of the current instructions issued by the manufacturer to cope with the loss of airspeed data."

[Sidebar]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 446268.ece
the crew found themselves trying to fly 230 tons of electronic wizardry by hand. At that altitude, it is far harder than passengers imagine.

Sounds like BS to me. I've never flown an A330. Can someone who has offer a comment to support or refute this assertion that it's "far harder than passengers imagine" to hand fly the aircraft at cruise altitude?

[Siddley Hawker]

If they can locate the recorders, I'm guessing they will be able to recover them. Air India 182's were recovered from what? 3000 meters or something, and I believe KAL 007's were deeper than that.

There's something else I don't understand. In ordering the pitot probes on the Busses replaced, does this mean the old probes were susceptible to ice up even with pitot heat on? Am I missing something, but how can an aircraft be certified to fly in known ice if the pitot heats are inadequate?

[Widow]

About recovery:

Arslanian said U.S. forces have lent the inquiry acoustic systems, which will be fitted to two naval vessels. That is in addition to France's Emeraude submarine and the high-tech equipment being send to the region by French marine research institute Ifremer.

Laurent Kerleguer, an engineer specialized in the ocean floor working with the investigation team, said the zone seen as the most likely site of the debris was 15,112 feet (4,606 meters) at its deepest point and 2,835 feet (864 meters) at its shallowest.

France's submarine, to arrive next week, will try to detect signals from the black boxes, said military spokesman Christophe Prazuck.

(Full article here: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... wD98LA4C80)

And info about the French sub that's on it's way, what it's done and can do, and other resources available: Air France Black Box Seeking Sub Is Titanic Veteran

[canwhitewolf]

This is a response to the individual that wants me to shake my head.
There are numerous forms of composite materials in use, and those materials have only improved and will continue to improve in future designs. When we do have an aircraft with a lightning hit report, its often the aluminum skin structure that has suffered the most damage. As I mentioned early there is a metal layer in all CRP panels that will conduct EMF to the exit points in an aircraft. Your examples presented some compelling media facts but surprisingly, not related or even close to the truth.
Do composite materials pose a danger in aircraft construction?
Yes like any other part of the structure if it is not inspected or the machine is not maintained in accordance with standard practices. CRP is no different than any other component material, abused it will fail just as sure as steel or aluminum will.
But then again your representation suggests you believe that aircraft design is haphazard and that the design of structure has not taken into account the operating environment. An oversight?

*******************************************************************

I did say ..."the research was done they apparently solved the problem, but maybe just maybe there is a possibility"



Close-up of left center vertical stabilizer attachment point, at crash site of amer 587

[Liquid Charlie]

Sounds like BS to me. I've never flown an A330. Can someone who has offer a comment to support or refute this assertion that it's "far harder than passengers imagine" to hand fly the aircraft at cruise altitude?

No doubt about it -- the airplane was designed to fly on an autopilot --

- to put it very simply - that type of aircraft can't be dispatched without it - aircraft can't fly in RVSM without it and given the speculated circumstances an upset of some sort (high or low speed) likely was inevitable. As stated in in the media -- and I think a mistake in judgment (wonder where the captain was initially - was there a cruise pilot) - and a sucker hole closed in and then an uncontrollable sequence of events started to unfold.

I have no working knowledge of Airbus "fly by wire" -- would control response be diminished when you start to lose primary computer control -- would you have the "feed back" in the joy stick -- all I know is you couldn't fly a boeing in those conditions in manual reversion.

[Fox 3]

Did anyone hear if the first bit of debris that was found (that wasn't part of AF447) was actually from an airplane? I think the news I heard said it was "ocean junk" or something. I expect it wasn't or else there would probably be more talk of an in flight collision, but I just wanted to see if anyone heard for sure.

Thanks for all the posting of news articles btw, it saves me having to search around

~FOX~

[Rockie]

This is a schematic of the reversion modes of the A330 FBW system. It is quite complex as you can see, but it works very well. The system provides optimum handling characteristics throughout the entire flight envelope as well as providing protections that other aircraft do not have. The system is designed to degrade in increments as things fail, and flight in alternate law 1 or 2 is not a big deal. Flight in direct law is basically a conventional aircraft with direct proportional side stick/flight control surface deflection. Again, not a big deal if you are at low altitude, but high up it would be a hand full. The most basic mode is "mechanical backup" which only gives you control of the horizontal stabilizer via the trim wheel and lateral control through the rudder. I wouldn't want to ever be in that mode even at low altitude.

There was a comment earlier about how flying the airplane off autopilot is much harder than passengers are aware of. Well, passengers have no idea how hard it is to fly a large aircraft under any circumstances much less without an autopilot. Even a lot of pilots don't really know either because they've never done it, or they have but without a lot of thought into what's going on around them. A large heavy jet aircraft close to its maximum altitude is a little like balancing on a beach ball. If the aircraft starts to stray even a little bit from the optimum flight path it must be corrected with very early, very small control inputs. Large control inputs are not possible because of the thinness of the air, inertia of the airplane, small margin above the max L/D, and lack of excess thrust. Even a small bit of mishandling up high can result in an accelerated stall with very poor recovery conditions. In turbulence it wouldn't be pleasant at all.

If the aircraft suffered a loss of airspeed information as they seem to be indicating, it would cause cascading failures in many, many systems including of course the flight controls. On top of that, the pilots instruments would stop making sense to them at night over a black ocean, possibly in heavy turbulence, and in a flight regime where they can least afford flight path deviations.

A330.jpg (116.55 KiB) Viewed 2602 times

[mabcan]

When CTV reports the opposite story of what has happened... If you read the press realease n°12 from Air France, and then you read these sentences in the article, there is really to worry about the information we receive every day.

CTV
"... The French agency investigating the crash, BEA, said Saturday that airspeed instruments known as Pitot tubes had not been replaced on the plane, despite recommendations to do so by manufacturer Airbus..."
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... TopStories

AIR FRANCE
"...Starting in May 2008 Air France experienced incidents involving a loss of airspeed data in flight, in cruise phase on A340s and A330s. These incidents were analysed with Airbus as resulting from pitot probe icing for a few minutes, after which the phenomenon disappeared. Discussions subsequently took place with the manufacturer. Air France asked for a solution which would reduce or eliminate the occurrence of these incidents. In response to these requests, the manufacturer indicated that the probe model recommended for the A320 was not designed to prevent such incidents which took place at cruise levels, and reiterated the operational procedures well-known to the crews.

In the first quarter of 2009 laboratory tests suggested, however, that the new probe could represent a valuable improvement to reduce the incidence of high altitude airspeed discrepancy resulting from pitot probe icing, and an in service evaluation in real flight conditions was proposed by Airbus. Without waiting for the in service evaluation, Air France decided to replace all its probes and the programme was launched on 27 April 2009... "
http://alphasite.airfrance.com/s01/?L=1

And until now, I still don't see any offcial information on the site of the BEA from June 6 about Pitot, but only about weather.

[YHZChick]

if the aircraft crashes on land do the boxes give off any signal to help pick them up?
Just wondering if we will really ever know if they found the 9-11 black boxes or not...

FDRs emit a locator beacon for up to 30 days.

[Ogee]

This is a schematic of the reversion modes of the A330 FBW system. It is quite complex as you can see, but it works very well. The system provides optimum handling characteristics throughout the entire flight envelope as well as providing protections that other aircraft do not have. The system is designed to degrade in increments as things fail, and flight in alternate law 1 or 2 is not a big deal. Flight in direct law is basically a conventional aircraft with direct proportional side stick/flight control surface deflection. Again, not a big deal if you are at low altitude, but high up it would be a hand full. The most basic mode is "mechanical backup" which only gives you control of the horizontal stabilizer via the trim wheel and lateral control through the rudder. I wouldn't want to ever be in that mode even at low altitude.

There was a comment earlier about how flying the airplane off autopilot is much harder than passengers are aware of. Well, passengers have no idea how hard it is to fly a large aircraft under any circumstances much less without an autopilot. Even a lot of pilots don't really know either because they've never done it, or they have but without a lot of thought into what's going on around them. A large heavy jet aircraft close to its maximum altitude is a little like balancing on a beach ball. If the aircraft starts to stray even a little bit from the optimum flight path it must be corrected with very early, very small control inputs. Large control inputs are not possible because of the thinness of the air, inertia of the airplane, small margin above the max L/D, and lack of excess thrust. Even a small bit of mishandling up high can result in an accelerated stall with very poor recovery conditions. In turbulence it wouldn't be pleasant at all.

If the aircraft suffered a loss of airspeed information as they seem to be indicating, it would cause cascading failures in many, many systems including of course the flight controls. On top of that, the pilots instruments would stop making sense to them at night over a black ocean, possibly in heavy turbulence, and in a flight regime where they can least afford flight path deviations.

A330.jpg

That's a wonderful explanation, Rockie. Should be in every major English speaking newspaper in the world, word for word.

[Dagwood]

if the aircraft crashes on land do the boxes give off any signal to help pick them up?
Just wondering if we will really ever know if they found the 9-11 black boxes or not...

FDRs emit a locator beacon for up to 30 days.

The beacon is activated when it's battery cell is immersed in salt water. Hence, no signal on land.

Each recorder is equipped with an Underwater Locator Beacon (ULB) to assist in locating in the event of an overwater accident. The device called a "pinger", is activated when the recorder is immersed in water. It transmits an acoustical signal on 37.5 KHz that can be detected with a special receiver. The beacon can transmit from depths down to 14,000 feet.

Hope that's deep enough

[Widow]

RECIFE, Brazil (AP) — Brazil's Navy says it has recovered three more bodies from the ocean where an Air France jet is believed to have crashed, bringing the total number of bodies plucked from the water to five.

Authorities also say they have spotted an undetermined number of additional bodies from the air and are sending ships to recover them.

(Full article here: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... wD98LSG2O0

Edited to add: +1 recovered by a "French helicopter crew". http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD98M1A9O0

A sad job for those involved in the recovery. My heart goes out to them as it does all who have been touched by this terrible tragedy.

[Liquid Charlie]

This is a schematic of the reversion modes of the A330 FBW system

good one -- thanks Rockie

[jetmech]

While I'm not a pilot, I do have an understanding of whats going on up front, generally speaking of course. I'm not familiar with the inner workings of the Airbus, but even if there was a speed issue, would there not be plenty of time to react? It's not as if the 330 was bucking along 150 feet above the water, 35'000 feet should give ample time to react, no? The plane would not just plummet, would there not be stall warnings and what not? Maybe excessive trimming?