Blade Latches C208 Float Plane

[DareDevil]

Anyone out there know if blade latches on the van are common?? .... how to do ya get em on the latches to begin with? get em off? any docking advice on the van would be great aswell!! ive flown all sorts of cessnas on the water but this will be the biggest and first turbine...all advice would be greatly appreciated!!!cheers

[TwinOtterLover]

Only thing i really know to say (not being a pilot but seeing what some pilots have done) is that if your not comfortable docking the aircraft using reverse like the other guys then don't use it. we had one pilot who liked to try and we pulled the plane out of the drink just about every other week.

[rigpiggy]

just inertial operated spring loaded pins. pull prop into reverse on shutdown, and into reverse prior to taxi after start. Not really common, as it is an extra cost option, however worth it if you realize that you have no thrust for about 30 secs, after start.

[DareDevil]

seems so simple and such a great benefit! thanks alot! cheers

[SuperDave]

Dare Devil,

Yes, latches are an option on the 208, but in my opinion the operator should have them installed if you're doing any amount of serious float work. Part of the novelty of flying a turbine-powered floatplane is versatility and latches are part of that equation as they allow you to dock a plane the size of the Caravan in some pretty tricky spots, thanks to the reverse and beta. Also, it sounds cool when you’re coming in to dock ☺

Here are some things I remember about flying the Van on floats:

TAKE OFF AND CLIMB

If you're flying it on amphibs, think of it as a floatplane with land-capability, not the other way around. I got into the habit of picking the gear up almost immediately after T/O since the gear travels fairly slow when compared to other retracts. The runway we operated out of was not unusually long and there was water at the other end so if the engine quit, under most circumstances it was better to have the gear already in the wells, or on it’s way, in case you had to put it on the lake. If there is no lake but instead trees, houses or whatever it's not going to matter much if you have the gear down or not anyway. Those big floats will cushion your ass pretty good. The other big reason to suck up the gear is so that you don't forget it down. You're a floatplane with land capabilities, remember?

OK...so positive rate, gear up and then climb to 400 feet at best rate with 20 degrees of flap. Is it 82 kts? I seem to remember 85 was an easier number to work with, so 85 to 400'. I don't remember what the book says exactly, but I think I used to let the speed build to about 95-100, then going flaps 10. Otherwise, with a heavy load on a hot day you'll really feel the ass-end fall out if you put them up earlier, and the stall horn comes on if it’s super gusty. 110, flaps up. If you kick in the electric trim a second or two before moving the flaps, it keeps up quite nicely with minimal effort required on the yoke. Be ready for a big trim change as you pull the flaps up.
Watch your ITT on T/O and climb on those hot summer days. I think the book allows 805…but if you don’t need it, don’t use it…save it for when you need to. For climb I used to pull the prop back just a touch, just off the red-line and climb out at max torque, or 765 ITT. We used 765 MAX ITT for climb, and 700 MAX ITT for cruise, just to take it easy on the engine. Read the POH on other procedures on noise abatement. Some pull the RPM to 1750 for climb, but on floats it’s nice to have that coarser pitch for the climb-out.

On floats with a load, don’t expect to see much more than 3-400 feet/min. 5-600 if you’re lucky.

T/O characteristics are similar to a C206 if you have time in that. Hot, humid, glassy water, 8 guys and gear will be pretty much the limit, depending on how much room you have. Have a look at the lake and memorize rocks and islands as far as 3-5 miles from where you plan to start the slide, you may need that much room! The technique I used for taking off in conditions described above was as follows.

If as with most floatplanes, backtrack enough to give what yourself enough room what you think you need to safely take-off. Then double it.

Ignition ON. Start the slide with flaps up and full aft trim. Smoothly apply the power, watching torque and ITT limits. You can pull full aft on the yoke at the start of the run if you like to get the prop out of the water, but in the end it will be the hydrodynamic pressure against the floats that will make the plane climb onto the step…so once the nose is on it’s way up you can relax the yoke. The plane will feel quite gutless at first, but have faith young Jeti! Just be patient and watch the waterline ever so slowly travel inch by inch backward along the float. Start wheeling in some forward trim with your thumb. Get a gentle rocking motion going, just nice and easy…no aggressive moves on the yoke because that will cause drag and really does nothing to get the plane on the step any faster…just let it find it’s own rhythm. When you feel it is ready to get onto the step, drop 10 degrees of flap. Trim it for the step. Wait. Let enough speed build that you can lift one float with one swift, full deflection of the aileron. Remember that spoiler? That will cost you valuable water if it’s just out there slowing you down, so you don’t want to rip around with this spoiler hanging in the wind waiting to roll the float. So pick up a float and hold it just above the water. When ready to fly, drop flaps to 20 and roll the other float out of the water. Some guys put out 30, but that’s another debate altogether. The Van has a high-speed wing, so it won’t do a lot until you have 60-80 kts on it, unlike the DHC stuff.

Climb away.

CRUISE
With a load, let it accelerate to cruise speed at climb power, then reduce power to 1550 ft/lbs torque and 1750 RPM. As you pull the prop back, the torque should increase to the desired setting of 1650…or you may want to use 1700 ft/lbs if it feels sluggish.
Double check flaps and gear are up. Autopilot ON, and relax in the nice cool air at 10,000…ah yes…

Descend.

APPROACH AND LANDING
The RECOG lights on the Van are designed to last longer than normal landing lights, so I always have those on for T/O and landing. Depending on how high you fly, I used to put them on through 3000’ or 10 miles out. You’ll find what works for you.
The flow-check on the Van works very well I find, but I used to back it up with my own stuff as well. If you’re using GUMPFS pay damn good attention to the gear!

GAS, X 2- On BOTH, check quantity
UNDERCARRIAGE – Floats? Wheels? Skis? Pressures? Landing on water, confirm the selector handle is up, you have 4 blue lights, and if you can visually confirm the nose gear…or ask your Pax in the right seat of they see a little brass-colored thing at the front of the float. Get in the habit of saying out loud to yourself something like: “Water landing, gear up, four blue, water rudders up…” Or…”runway landing, gear down, four brown, brake pressure”…
MIXTURE – High Idle
PROP – MAX
FLAPS – 120 kts, flaps 10, 110 flaps 20, on final flaps 30.
SWITCHES – Do whatever you do…make sure the IGNITION is ON for landing.

Depending on the load 80-85 works good. Use 90 in really gusty conditions if you have to, but be careful... you’ll feel if it’s right or not
The Van is relatively heavy so inertia will come into play a lot more during the landing phase than say, with a 185. If you need to put it into a tight spot over some trees to stay of rough water or what have you, don’t drag it in at 10 feet over the trees at full flap with a bunch of power on, to then chop and drop in onto the water. Unless you’re in BC where the trees are 200’ tall, you’ll set up a high enough sink-rate that will be hard to catch.

Instead, plan a steeper than normal descent angle from a ways back. This way you’ll have a better view of what’s going on with the gusts while keeping your landing area in sight at all times. This provides a much safer, stable descent profile with minimal power and attitude changes, while still touching down very close to shore. Also, by using this method, if you catch a downdraft you’ve got some altitude and energy to play with. With the power below 400 ft/lbs you’ll start to feel the prop ‘disc’ quite a bit. Play with it a little, it can come in handy, and you should be comfortable with the engine and airplane characteristics before doing these steeper, ‘short field’ approaches.
With the power at idle and full flap hanging out, the Caravan on floats comes out of the sky like a greased crowbar. This, along with the heavy weight and inertia requires a bit of forethought for the flare. Simply pulling the nose up will merely do just that, while still heading for the water at a frightening rate. Remember that with the power at idle it will take a bit of time for the engine to spool up if you need to add power, which you often will, with a steep approach like this. Again, practice and get to know how much you’ll need and how long it takes, and at what altitude you need to start adding. Normally with the profile discussed here I would start to add a bit of power at about 5-10 feet or so depending on load and sink rate, to check the downward inertia.

As with any floatplane touchdown just a tad nose high of the step. You can relax the back-pressure as it slows down, so that you don’t forcefully dig the heels. As the plane slows feed in a bit of beta at your discretion, or just before it falls of the step. This will help you decelerate and let you know if beta mode is working. It’s better to find this out now, rather than when you’re screaming into the dock. I’ve never really had to use reverse on floats, but you can…do it once in a while to know how it feels, but beware of the p-factor, prop damage, and ingesting water. Pull full-back as it falls off the step and hold the yoke in that position. You’ll find that the nose will come down as if falls off the step, then come back up, then fall back into the normal displacement attitude. Hold full aft until this is all done. The tail will often get submerged and can bounce the wheel right out of your hand, so that’s why ya gots to hang on.

Put the water rudders down and turn off one fuel selector. If you forget this and you’re parked at the dock for a few hours, well…worst case scenario is that you can sink the outside float if a big fuel imbalance develops.

DOCKING
Being a ‘large’ floatplane, big directional changes must be planned in advance, but all in all it handles quite well. Do all your shutdown checks, take off your seatbelt and crack the door. If you can, wait until you’re more or less lined up with the dock before turning off your Avionics, but if it’s tight, just turn them off. Yes, it will take a little longer for everything to spool up and initialize when you depart...but you can’t screw around with your head inside for too long. Do everything…avionics off, stby pwr off…so that the only thing left to do is pull the condition-lever to shutdown the engine. Approach the dock from a bit of an angle.
The Van sits very nose-high, even when empty, so this provides a better view. You’ll probably be in beta already. Maintain walking speed, or whatever is required for water rudder authority. Remember that the pax door is about 10 feet or so behind you so, it will be weird at first for you to go ‘beyond’ the dock (depending on it’s size). Practice makes perfect, but as you get close feed in some right rudder to swing the back of the floats towards the dock and use reverse/beta as required. Keep one hand on the throttle and with the other hold the door open if needed to see what’s going on. I normally aimed for the far corner of the dock. This will provide you and ‘out’, create a good angle for the approach, as well as being able to detect drift. Unless you have dockhands, don’t diddle around too much in beta near the dock. You’ll attract a lot of attention with all that noise, and if you screw it up, instead of 3 people witnessing the abortion of a docking, 50 people will. Also, soon enough the wind will catch you and so on.
Come in, swing in the tail, stop…or almost stop and then cut the mixture. Jump out and get a rope or two on it. After everything is secure you can go back and shut off the fuel pump/master. By moving forward and maintaining a bit of speed, more beta or reverse will be required to stop which will ensure that the prop will catch the latches. Soon, you’ll know how much your plane will creep fore or aft after shutting down…I remember most of them creeping backwards a little but I could be wrong.

On windy days the prop will spin forever sometimes so you can use a broom or something to slow it down, or the flat palm of your hand. If you do this, be VERY CAREFULL!!! I don’t really recommend it…but it works if needed.

With a stiff offshore wind, again, use an angle approach…maybe 30 degrees ‘off’. You’ll need a lot of forward speed in order to maintain water-rudder control. Keep it ripping along almost right to the dock, kick in full right rudder to swing in the left heel to come parallel with the dock. This will create some turning intertia and buy you a bit of time as you jump out. No time to screw around here…you need to get it right. Ideally you want it all to be one motion…swing in the tail, stop, shutdown, jump out and get that back rope secured. If it feels like it’s not going to work out go around and try again. Sometimes you can’t go forward, so be prepared to back up if the wind starts pointing the nose toward the shore. Check your speed when backing up as it’s easy to sink the heels, especially when heavy. Pull the water rudders up if you can.

Beware at all times where dock is in relation to the prop.

The good thing about the Van is that the floats are forward of the prop so most of the time the floats will just bump the dock. But it’s best not to get in the habit of having that as your only out. If you ever get into the turbine otter on floats where the nose sticks way out ahead…well, you know here this is going.

If you have dockhands, or someone to help you, make they’re trained!! Refuse help from people who don’t know, they can get you in whole lot of trouble sometimes. If the dock is covered in Turkeys who don’t get the message, just come in, giver ‘er a bunch of reverse and blow all their hats off into the water. While their scrambling to retrieve them you can come around and dock in peace.
Back the dockhands. The rear rope as basically your second engine as far as maneuverability is concerned. It should be the first rope on, and the last rope off. Then you can use forward thrust to either pull the plane parallel to the dock, or reverse to turn it out towards the water.
If you don’t have help when departing, use the wind and complete all your start checks while still tied up to the dock, so that all you have to do when you jump in is turn on the boost pump and hit the starter.

As mentioned, you'll have no control over the prop for about 30 seconds. So, make sure that area ahead is clear and that the wind won't point the nose toward the shore. The exhaust will produce some jet-thrust so the plan will move ahead during start. If you have someone hold the plane, make sure you brief them properly.

I can count on one hand the amount of times I've come into a dock with the prop feathered. There is usually no reason to, although I know at some companies it is standard practice. In my mind, it just defeats the purpose of having a turbine. Why give away all this control at the dock when you don't have to?
But sometimes you'll need to feather it, for example when it's a howling offshore wind and you need to nose it in (you want the prop stopped, right), or when doing shoreline work. If you are doing shorline work and need to to nose into the bushes, trees or rocks, make sure you leave yourself a lot more room than you think!! As the prop goes into feather on shutdown the plane will surge ahead quite a bit. And with at 8000 lbs, you can't just put your foot out to keep it from bumping a rock. Feather a long ways back and just let the exhaust drive it home.

On departure from the shore, give yourself a good 100 feet from any obstacle you may be pointing at before you hit the starter. You'll be even more of a sitting duck in this scenario than when you start on the latches. The engine needs to start, come out of feather, and spool up before you have any control over that propeller. All this time you're moving forward, especially as it goes from feather to coarse pitch, so plan ahead accordingly.

I hope this helps. Remember that this is just what I used to to…it worked for me that’s all. Your company may have you do things a little differently, so please bare that in mind.

You’ll love it, it’s a very capable airplane if you don’t need STOL performance. Have a safe season!

Dave

[nwesterntown]

Amazing post. Thank you

[meflypretty]

Great post. This is why I come to this website. Thanks for sharing.

[fortis risk]

Yeah, I've got to agree. Great post, very generous of you. That post itself validates this website.

[SuperDave]

Wow thanks for the nice comments!

You're welcome. I'm glad it helped out, and I hope it useful to some extent.

Dave

[A2G]

Great post indeed!

Best part is where you say to stop prop with hand! Thats cutting edge

[Sulako]

Great post SuperDave, I really enjoyed it.

[PanEuropean]

Great post Dave, thanks for taking the time to write it.

Michael

[grover]

It was a really great post, and much of it applies to vans in general, not just on floats. Very useful information, and it affirms some of the things I have learned on my own by trial and error. Its good to know that others do things similarly. Thanks for taking the time and putting your thoughts and experience together. I appreciate it.

[The Barrel Man]

Wow Dave, add a few more chapter and publish a book, you could make a lot more scratch! Hope things are going well up north for you.
would like to hear from some people who shut down and coast into the dock and what there veiws on it are. A friend always said that the Caravan on floats was not a bush plane, just a float plane.

[Cannonballer]

Yeah Dave really good post.

If i could add 2 points. When docking the 208, the exaust actually puts out about 35 ft/Lbs of thrust. So be ready for that tail to move away from the dock if you are sitting there for more than a few seconds. Once you have the A/C where you want it shut down and tie up. The best wind i found for docking the 208 is a quartering tail wind. The breeze hitting the tail is ussally enough to counter act the tendency for the airplane to rotate away from the dock. The other thing is always check your prop to be sure that the latches caught. otherwise you will have a big surprise on your next start up. If the blades have feathered and you did not notice it there will be quite a surge forward at start up ... your first reaction will be to add more reverse and this will just make the problem worse because you are just adding power to a coarse pitch prop. YOu could end up in the trees or worse in the back of another airplane.

This has happened before to other airplanes and pilots. It can be very dangerous. This happened to me ONCE. First float flight after a new prop was installed. NO LATCHES.... Airplane was fine and there was no damage and nobody got hurt but it sure woke me up when i thought of what could have happend.

Hope this helps,

C