Cat Driver wrote:... that was before they dumbed flying down to the lowest IQ and motor skills individuals in society ...
There's lots of comments like this on this site. One might think that, if individuals with the lowest IQ and motor skills in society are flying, there would have been an increase in number of accidents and accident rate. I'm wondering why, if flying has been dumbed down, available evidence shows that flying has become progressively safer.
Canadian-registered aircraft (other than ultralights) were involved in 295 reported accidents in 2001. This total represents a 25-year low, with an 8% decrease from the 319 reported in 2000 and a 15% decrease from the 1996–2000 annual average of 349. Flying activity in 2001 totalled 3 860 000 hours, a 3% decrease from 3 990 000 hours in 2000. This yields a 2001 accident rate of 7.6 accidents per 100 000 flying hours, which is lower than the 2000 accident rate of 8.0 and the 1996–2000 average rate of 8.8. The 2001 accident rate is also a 25-year low. Canadian-registered aircraft (other than ultralights) were involved in 33 fatal accidents in 2001, with 62 fatalities. This is slightly fewer than the 1996–2000 average of 37 fatal accidents, with 71 fatalities. Of the fatal accidents in 2001, 17 involved private- or state-operated aircraft and 6 involved helicopters.
Canadian-registered aircraft, other than ultralights, were involved in 251 reported accidents in 2008, a 12 per cent decrease from the 2007 total of 284 and a 7 per cent decrease from the 2003-2007 average of 270. The estimate of flying activity for 2008 is 4 432 000 hours, yielding an accident rate of 5.5 accidents per 100 000 flying hours, down from the 2007 rate of 6.6 and from the five-year rate of 6.7. Canadian-registered aircraft, other than ultralights, were involved in 25 fatal occurrences with 50 fatalities in 2008, comparable to the 33 fatal occurrences with 49 fatalities in 2007 and the five-year average of 31 fatal occurrences with 50 fatalities. A total of 9 fatal occurrences involved commercial aircraft (3 aeroplanes and 6 helicopters), and 10 of the remaining 16 fatal occurrences involved privately operated aeroplanes.
Maybe I've got it wrong. Is there another measure I haven't considered regarding whether flying has been dumbed down?
I'm beginning to think that the dum and dummer side show is spreading. Today I departed Langley and was keeping track of a home-build tracking from White Rock to Chilliwack after the tower passed both of us as traffic. He's doing 140+ and my wee Alleycat is slowed to about 120 because of the nasty turbulance all the while heading to Chilliwack for lunch....with the home-built behind me.
Over Hatsic Lake the other guy passed me on the left and I followed him into the Pie Place. You might think that if you were passed traffic you would be expected to be looking for that traffic. No such thing...he admitted to day-dreaming and never saw me as he passed me by about 300 feet laterally...with his PCAS warning him of traffic very close and closing.
As the digital toys become more available and the dreamers install these things, the less these twidget twiddlers will be looking out the window...and that scares the hell out of me. This guy had an extreme case of Cranial Vascular Rectalitis which could have caused a sunny day to turn into something very dark.
No it hasn't just some old koots on here that figured out how to use a computer that are looking at the past through rose colored glasses.
Becoming an " Old koot " as you put it . is proof positive that I didn't fly using rose colored glasses.
And for sure I got to fly the latest in technology up to now.
I really can't do much about the passage of time but fortunately for me my health is still excellent and my flying skills have not decayed as far as I can determine.
Even if they do decay from where I was a few years ago I still might be well within the norm for flying skills...at least I think I am.
Drop by sometime and we can chat about the stuff we have flown and the places we have flown.
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I think aviation in north America has certainly been dumbed down. For example look at the morons that crashed the dash 8 outside buffalo becase they flew into some ice...
Part of the reason the aviation statistics show that there are fewer and fewer crashes as time goes on, I beleive, has to do with the increased technology in the aircraft that we fly.
How many people that fly for Jazz or WJ would be able to hand fly as normal an approach with no vasis or ILS or other means other than looking out the window? ( in VMC of cours)
S
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Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
— Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.
Another sub-topic, could this be the reason why pilot's are treated so poorly? Aviation attracting the "dumber" and "non-cognizant" person to the industry hence causing lots of havoc. I'm not necessarily talking about competency and dumbness, even though that also is a factor. But just think about it, would a smart person with avid self respect agree to work for burger wages? no.
There's a fine line between paying off your dues as a NEWBIE in comparison to being treated like a slave.
Do I think Europe has a better system? No, but they don't take the Grade 12 50% average kid and put him through KLM/Lufthansa/CFC and all those Flight Academy's. These guys are academically apt... does it mean they're good pilot's? Not necessarily. But Europe has developed a system that works, and treats pilot's professionally. Cause honestly, you don't need to be an excellent pilot to "manage" a big jet from the right seat. Unlike Canada, I find that they have a more "controlled" system over the output of CPL's/MCL graduates. Since it's already established that the pilot's there are generally not high-school drop outs, there's a general sense of respect and professionalism reserved for their pilot's.
But then again, the economic times have hit everybody really badly and the European market isn't doing as well.
I'm not saying canadian pilot's are high school drop outs, but there's a WIDE RANGE of backgrounds in both American and Canadian pilot's. The ones who know their craft well and are the "smarter" ones progress to the better jobs and qualities of life. Although that's up for debate too.
Yet another sub-topic; could this be the reason North American airlines are wanting to hire candidates with post secondary? Cause aviation is simply too easy and "anybody" can have a license? Just write the exam a few times kind-of-attitude? I recently witnessed a student transfer over from another school the other day and he thought altimeters were reported in AGL... this is a commercial student. I'm scared because he just moved from a very mountainous region in BC.
I remember throughout my instructor rating training, I was always accused of going into too much detail. Fact is, if the student knows the bigger picture (developmentally), he's going to form a much larger, better, and correct "impression" which will result to proper "insights." Anybody care to pull out the FIG and see how many times the words impression and insights have been used? Obviously they're onto something here.
Yup, dumbed down and safer because of it. Its like those gear levers that look like a wheel -- that was someone's idea. The gear and flap levers used to look the same, and they are now made obvious (dumbed down,) so it's easy. Same with GPS, makes things easy. Same with an autopilot. And controlled airspace. And STOL kits. Even those wind calculators on the back of an E6B, it's easier than working out the trig.
So it looks like aviation has been dumbed down by useful tools.
square wrote:Yup, dumbed down and safer because of it. Its like those gear levers that look like a wheel -- that was someone's idea. The gear and flap levers used to look the same, and they are now made obvious (dumbed down,) so it's easy. Same with GPS, makes things easy. Same with an autopilot. And controlled airspace. And STOL kits. Even those wind calculators on the back of an E6B, it's easier than working out the trig.
So it looks like aviation has been dumbed down by useful tools.
That's another way to look at it too square.
But does it really promote to safety? Since things are so much "easier" now it seems like pilots over-look how easy it is sometimes and get them selves into a shabby situation.
I love to come on now and again and watch the 'old Koots' and the 'new dummies' banter back and forth about who is better than who in our ego driven industry. There are an infinite different ways to approach a runway and an infinite amount of ways to crash an airplane, but somebody always knows the 'best way' to do it. There is a huge difference between flying 60 years ago and today!! Back in the old days they had the air command weather manual and and a basic understanding of physics of flight mixed with cheap gas...and they did just fine!! They paved the way to what we have now... GPS, Internet weather, CARS, TSB reports, Discovery's Mayday, Nav Canada, AWAS, SOP's, precision approaches....and on and on and on. My point being, there is so much information as a young pilot or even not so young pilots, that keeping up and trying to syphon out all of the bull$#&t from the need to know is very tough. Just learning an FMS is an intensive week long course!! There is all the info that the 'Old koots' had to know and learn, plus all of the new rules, instruments, procedures, information and publications that new pilots are being exposed to now. Humans don't simplify...we complicate with our simplicity, sometimes it works and sometimes it dosn't. But if we could create a time machine we could send a the citation excel back to 1936 and laugh at the 'old koots' try and navigate through the operating system to program the auto pilot.....all the 'new dummies' can have a good laugh at how well they do, but it doesn't prove who is better than who. Maybe its the 'teaching machine' but then again my old man learned to fly from the farmer next door who had 130 hrs in a moth....maybe the 'old koot' is a better pilot than me.....but maybe there is no need to compare because there is no difference. The world is a very different place and the environment in with aviation exists has changed dramatically....but I would be willing to bet that a 24 year old has the same capacity to understand just as much now as one did back in the old days. And vice versa.
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I fly because it releases my mind from the tyrony of petty things.
sure, Pika, I'll jump on that one.
One of the primary instances of dumbing down was the recent introduction of the approach ban.
Millions of ILs approaches have been conducted since the system was introduced (1930s???) The percentage success rate must be about 99.999999999999999999999 percent. Just because a few botched it up and died, now nobody can continue what once was a safe process.
It should be obvious that if pilots conduct approaches properly, the success rate should not change.
Does this mean that if someone is caught 5kph over the limit on the 401 the approved speed should be reduced by 10 kph?
Incidentally, as usual, this thread has gone off on a tangent. It is not about whether us old 'koots' are any better than the youngsters coming into the industry. "Dumbing down" is, I believe, a comment against the Regulator.
There is nothing wrong with simplification (KISS) in any process. However, just because you have just learned to cope with a highly simplified and technologically supported process does not mean you should be captain next week. I think Sully provided evidence for that.
Use all your equipment, do approaches properly and have a fine career.
I think aviation in north America has certainly been dumbed down. For example look at the morons that crashed the dash 8 outside buffalo becase they flew into some ice...
I doubt whatever trace of ice they may have picked up will have anything to do with the crash. Just a case of not minding the shop. Same as the Turkish 737 in Amsterdam that was at idle for 100 seconds.
I believe that any tool or piece of technology that makes the job simpler is a good thing and not a dumbing down. However I don't think this is a new debate. I'm sure there is a contingent that thinks moving pilots inside the airplane, using ADF's, and making airplanes out of metal rather than wood and cloth was a bad idea.
At 45 yrs old but still relatively new to flying( 12 yrs in ), I think I have a unique perspective,not quite an "old coot" and not quite a "newbie". I would first like to remind all the newbies that everything aviation is today... we owe to the old coots. I would then like to remind the old coots that everything aviation is today.... we owe to you guys!!!
There would be no FMS, ILS, GPS.etc, if not for the innovations of the old coots. They are part of the generation that strived for a better way of doing things, a safer way of doing things. They were tired of seeing their friends die!
There would be no PDM, CRM , VASIS,Windshear reports at airports, if not for the generation that so many of its pilots f#@ked up a night visual approach that it was decided to use a light system to guide them. There would not be CRM if an " old coot " captain had not decided to over rule his young " newbie " copilot and take off on an occupied runway..... killing 578 people when the two planes collided.Three " old coots " flew a perfectly good L-1011 in to the Florida everglades because they were screwing around with a gear light, hence PDM. Another L-1011 crashed in Dallas because the "old coots " flew through a thunder storm, hence Windshear reports.Etc,etc,etc.
Orville and Wilbur Wright and all the early pioneers of flight envisioned a day when the average person would be able to fly...... maybe we have reached that day. This doesn't mean that all the new pilots are dumbed down versions of their predecessors.
This is an interesting supposition but I think it misses the mark. It is not (in my opinion) about dumbing down, it is about attitude. It seems to me that young people today including those entering aviation, have a very selfish and entitlement focused attitude, with virtually no respect of authority. This I guess is our fault meaning their parents, for coddling them and basically spoiling the crap out of them. I run into lots of pilots, even in my own outfit, who profess they are ready for command with almost no experience or an obvious grasp of good judgement or thoughtful decision making. Our whole society is now geared towards instant gratification. How many nuggets out of flightschool will make the effort to put 5000km behind them in the spring looking for that 185 or beaver job? They would rather instruct in Vancouver or Toronto or somewhere with high speed internet and cel phone coverage. When I started out perseverence and willingness to work hard without complaint was what separated the men the boys. Everyone had to start on the dock or on the ramp, keep their mouth shut and their ears open, work from dawn till dusk and be patient. Nowadays if you don't upgrade or progress as fast as you like then you file a grievance or hire a labour lawyer to say your human rights have been violated or you have been harassed or discriminated against because of you race, religion or sex. People just want it all now without paying their dues. And the worst thing is they don't realize that paying their dues will most likely save their life some day. As a nugget sitting aound at coffee time, I used to pick the oldtimers brains every chance I could get. I figured if they had been in aviation for 30 or 40 years and were still around to talk about it then they had to be doing something right. I remember one day in YRL I was in my second season on a 185. The weather was in the trees, everyone was sitting and the gear was piling up on the dock. My boss came down and started reaming me out for not going flying. I told him (big) Ed Showalter was sitting at the dock over in Couchenour, and once he he decided it was good to go, then I would too. What could he say? All I'm saying is one of the most important lessons a young pilot can learn is to slow down and be observant and curious. Don't worry so much about the next seat or job, but think about doing the job you have now to the best of your ability. If this is your attitude, then the upgrades and opportunities will come.
No, aviation hasn't been dumbed down. All of the tools that have become available over the years are certainly beneficial.
I'm thinking complacency is a bit more rampant though, and I can admit to having a bit of that myself, sometimes. It's tough to avoid but something that we HAVE to be cognizent of.
As for the entitlement and poor ethics, that's another topic altogether.
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Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart
ramjet wrote:How many nuggets out of flightschool will make the effort to put 5000km behind them in the spring looking for that 185 or beaver job?
Why would I? With a wife and kids for minimal flying and minimum wage? This attitude of 'paying your dues' keeps the industry in the shitter. A guy I know spent two summers in YRL with a professional career as an AME behind him, and finally gave up and went to wheel flying. I managed to find a couple flying jobs close to home that payed decently an I don't think I am 'missing out' by not being a ground pounder.
When I started out perseverence and willingness to work hard without complaint was what separated the men the boys. Everyone had to start on the dock or on the ramp, keep their mouth shut and their ears open, work from dawn till dusk and be patient.
I've never worked the dock or ramp, but I do work it every day around my flying duties. I am never asked to sweep a floor, take out garbage, or wash an aircraft--but I do it anyways.
There is a fine line between a good work ethic and allowing yourself to be exploited. More people would agree to a ramp/dock job if there was a guarantee of a flying position at the end of it--rather than the perpetual carrot dangling in front of them.
I think it's the people who have been dumbed down.
The new ways of bringing up children in non competitive environments with success for all of them has created a false expectation in the new adults.
The flight test for the Private Pilot Licence is onerous and a long slog for many. It is much more difficult to pass the flight test today than it was when I did it 35 years ago.
Students are not well prepared for the test and so here we created worksheets for students to go through during their training such that they learn what they are supposed to learn when they should know it and things are not a sudden surprise when the flight test looms.
The problem is not 'dumbing down' it is in the application to the job of learning that is lacking in many.
To an extent people grow up without the learning skills and discipline to hit the books and gain the knowledge we need.
We learn to fly on the ground and practice it in the air.
The problem is not 'dumbing down' it is in the application to the job of learning that is lacking in many.
Hit the nail on the head. I would even say that there is a marked difference between peoples ability to learn now, than even when I first started instructing ten years ago. Its most demonstrable in the younger students, but also shows in a lot of the older ones as well. The core of it I feel is the dependance on new tech to a point where people are unable to function without it. A good example is the dependance on hand held devices like blackberries, notebooks, etc. Your average person no longer retains the ability to remember long strings of numbers is a good example - their phone now does it for them, but this translates into a severe difficulty when studying for a written test. People used to have lifetimes worth of practice with simple abilities which in turn helped them learn, which have been increasingly discarded. This includes methods for remembering things - like how to make a short hand list, how to write fast, simple calculations - all gone or disappearing.
Some of these things we have ourselves to blame for, especially as Michael mentioned above in relation to our education system. There's no penalty for failure, there's no incentive to do well. The biggest failing I find a lot of fresh high school students is their reading compehension abilities which are extrordinarily poor. Being unable to read and understand the FTM and FTGU is a serious hinderance to a student's flight training. The ability to use charts and graphs also is lacking, as well as the math background that lies behind them.
The worst part about it is how some seem to joyously embrace ignorance in today's society.
Gawd, there are many times I'd like to be ignorant. Ignorance is bliss, right? My next life, I'm coming back as a black lab.
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Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart
